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Aule
(Sat May 31 12:28:18)
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Some conditions for an archetypal hero:
- Sets off on a quest - sometimes due to some sort of loss or because it is thrust upon him/her.
- A mentor to guide the hero
- Overcoming evil through a set of trials
- Escapes or overcomes death, often narrowly
- Destroys or thwarts the evil villain
- An increase in status after the quest is fulfilled (becoming King, marrying the princess, etc.)
- Happy Ending
Clearly, Aragorn is a strong example of an archetypal hero. Can you think of others within Tolkien's world? What examples from classical literature and mythology can you think of that may have influenced Tolkien for the likes of Aragorn and others in his works? Finally, what impact does the inclusion of an archetypal hero such as Aragorn have on your interest and enjoyment in the work, and what is it about the archetypal hero that so enthralls us?
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What about Gandalf?(more in The Hobbit than in LotR)
fernie_lotz speaking
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Aule
(Sat May 31 12:41:03)
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Gandalf is more the mentor than an archetypal hero. He chose to be there for the very purpose of bringing down Sauron, and guided others accordingly. In the Hobbit, he guided Bilbo, to bring down Smaug.
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- Sets off on a quest - sometimes due to some sort of loss or because it is thrust upon him/her.
I don't think he really chooses to bring down Sauron in LotR, but it is an obligation on his part, as an Istari and member of the Council, to do so. That's why he tries to unite the free peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron.
- A mentor to guide the hero
As you said above, he is The Mentor in LotR and The Hobbit. A guide.
- Overcoming evil through a set of trials
Well, LotR and The Hobbit are full of evil trials that they must overcome to reach their goal.
- Escapes or overcomes death, often narrowly
The Balrog? He 'comes back to life' in order to finnish what he started.
- Destroys or thwarts the evil villain
Well he doesn't really destroy anybody important, (as far as I know). But he does thwart Saruman in Rohan.
- An increase in status after the quest is fulfilled (becoming King, marrying the princess, etc.)
Gandalf the Grey becomes Gandalf the White
- Happy Ending
fernie_lotz speaking
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Aule
(Sat May 31 13:13:53)
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I still say Gandalf is not an archetypal hero. He's a god/angel sent to guide the people of Middle Earth, and thereby is a mentor to the heros involved. Where is his mentor? There are aspects to Gandalf that are heroic, but I don't see him as an archetypal hero.
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Based on what I've seen in the movies, and read (in the Hobbit). I agree. I think that's why I like him so much.
Sarcasm
Just one more service I offer.
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sarcas
(Sat May 31 13:05:32)
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My mind is kind of slow today, so I came up with just one other hero, who could have influenced Tolkien. In Homers Odyssee, Ulysses has to liberate his home from his foes after he returns, just like the Hobbits after their adventure (scouring of the shire).
It is in men that we must place our hope
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I was just going to mention The Odyssey...
Gaby 
"There's only one person in the whole world like you." 
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:19:15)
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Yeah, Ulysses had to sort of retake his home from the suitors of his wife, Penelope.
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 UPDATED Sat May 31 23:14:57 |
This message has been deleted by the poster
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Based on what I've read on the boards about her, wouldn't Eowyn fit in this category?
Sarcasm
Just one more service I offer.
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:06:39)
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But Eowyn's a chick! Just kidding, Trin.
Yeah, I think she does represent some aspects of the archetypal hero. War was sort of thrust upon her, although she did choose to go to war against the wishes of everyone else. She did face and overcome death (Witch King), and she did marry the prince, and there was a happy ending. She didn't really have the mentor thing, but I suppose Aragorn was this from afar.
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All the points you mentioned, were exactly what I was thinking.
Sarcasm
Just one more service I offer.
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Didn't Tolkien have some influence from Beowulf? He's an archetypal hero for sure, as are the King Arthur myths--which I know that Tolkien did Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which fits all those requirements, so that could also be an influence.I would also say that Eowyn fits those as well. Frodo fits several, but not the happy ending, and I'm not sure about the increase in status (as well as he wasn't really the one who destroyed the villian/Ring).
I must wield the cleaver, it's most annoying.
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:11:19)
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Beowulf was a big time influence on Tolkien. King Arthur was less. He actually kind of had scorn for it in some ways, because it directly portrayed Christian characterizations.
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I knew that he had translated Sir Gawain, didn't know how he felt about it. I never really liked King Arthur either--most legends and myths can be somewhat depressing, but those seemed especially depressing--adultery (Lancelot: King Arthur is my friend and king, how bout I carry on an affair with his wife for years), incest, betrayal, most knights die on the quest for the Holy Grail, everyone dies on the battlefield at the end. What pleasant reading! (and this from someone who tends towards somewhat depressing/sobering/uberrealistic reading material)
I must wield the cleaver, it's most annoying.
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...and yet, the move "Excalibur" was amazing...
Magic of nature, lust as a force, love as a force, glory and horror of war, loss, betrayal, redemption, spiritual renewal, the scrape of Christianity against Celtic spiritualism - it is all there!!!
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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kiplingkat
(Sat May 31 14:19:29)
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| UPDATED Sat May 31 14:23:13 |
Actually, Aragorn never interested me. He was too bland. Frodo with his small courage and great determination is the hero of LOTR to me, but in either case, it's not the hero, it's the journey: not Aragorn or Frodo as a personality per se, but the things they go through.
(Mind you, I'm leaning heavily on Campbell). From Gilgamesh to Odyseus to Arthur to Frodo the hero's journey has enthralled all human beings. Every culture has at least one myth of the Hero. But it is not the hero him or herself that is the draw. In fact, many archetypal heros are foolish or overbearing or dishonest, especially in the beginning. Each hero provides the lessons, the pattern of growth that young people in that particular culture need to become fully functioning adults. What echoes in us are the trials and challenges and the growth they acheive through them. Just as in our own life we face challenges to learn lesson of maturity and wisdom that help us become adults, so the hero faces his challenges. The hero's challenges are outside of him or herself, yet in all the stories, they echo choices and lessons that we all must learn in the quieter real world.
Two books that introduced me to Joseph Campbell and taught me the universal experience of myth were "She" and "He" by Robert Johnson. (He also did a "We" about relationships) In the "She" book, the psycologist (of the Jungian school of thought) takes the myth of Psyche and Cupid and shows how it lays out the universal journey of a young women into adulthood (at least in european cultures). "He" does the same thing for boys using the myth of Parsifal. And of course, "The Hero With a Thousand Faces", by Joseph Campbell lays out in detail the draw these myths have on the human conciousness.
"Boromir, quit trying to cut off Frodo's head ..." ~ Blatant favoritism most annoying.
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I think they're both intriguing for different reasons. It seems to me like they are experiencing a similar type of of journey from a different angle/perspective. My opinion is based solely on the movies, though. The books might slightly alter my perception, so who knows. I think I'll always view them both as heroes, though.
Sarcasm
Just one more service I offer.
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kiplingkat
(Sat May 31 14:43:18)
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| UPDATED Sat May 31 15:06:39 |
"It seems to me like they are experiencing a similar type of of journey from a different angle/perspective."
That's avery insightful observation. When I think about it, both Frodo and Aragorn are becomming fully realized in their own personal way. Aragorn in his various stages from Strider to Elessar and Frodo from the Hobbit-carrying-the-Ring to Ringbearer (with similar perspective and wisdom to Galadriel and Gandalf).
"Boromir, quit trying to cut off Frodo's head ..." ~ Blatant favoritism most annoying.
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:16:20)
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Tolkien, and earlier mythologies, do seem to have common threads regarding the inner journey that we humans go through. The quest is not only a journey from one physical place to another and the obtaining of an item or goal, but the inner journey of character and understanding within that context.
There always seems to be a price that must be paid, and enlightenment or the achievement of some greater purpose is at the end.
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Good topic Aule! Let's refill this board with some good stuff...
I think that there are a few typical hero-factors that you do not mention. For instance: many hero figures -from ancient myth to current-day movies- share the fact that they come from a broken home. Somehow, not knowing one's parents (or one of them) seems to be a key ingredient towards hero-dom. To name but a few: Moses, Harry Potter, Spiderman... and yes, also Frodo Baggins, just as big a hero as Aragorn, but archetypical in another way.
Of course Aragorn can be seen as a condensed image of all sorts of mythical heroes from Tolkiens vast expertise. There's definitely a good dose of Arthur as well as Lancelot in him (just as Merlin echoes on in Gandalf).
I am not that keen on heroes myself (which is probably why I found Spiderman so dull), I usually go for the anti-hero like Frodo. The person who rises above himself in the face of adversity, that's the one I cheer for. If there hadn't been "simple" heroes like Frodo and the other hobbits in LOTR, I am certain the books -and movies- would not have had the same mass appeal. People want to relate to the characters they read about. My guess is that there are more Frodo's and Bilbo's than there are Aragorns out there!
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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I agree, Wajz, that I also see Frodo (and Sam) as the heroes of the tale. But Frodo's quest differs in one important respect from the archetypal "hero" - his quest is not to gain a magical artifact, but to lose one. It is the destruction of the Ring (and the subsequent sacrifices for not only Frodo, but the whole of Middle Earth, as the destruction of the Ring is a two-edged sword, meaning the loss of the elves' power) that marks this quest out from the usual "heroic quest".
...And what does Frodo gain from his success? Even in the Shire, he does not become famous, like Merry and Pippin do; he endures pain from his wounds; and eventually leaves his beloved Shire to go into the West. Aragorn gains the Kingship and the "princess", the usual rewards for heroic success - but it's not Aragorn who has saved Middle Earth from the rule of Sauron. Without the "unsung" hero, there would be no victory for Aragorn and the side of good.
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:09:16)
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I agree that there are more Frodo's and Bilbo's out there than there are Aragorn's, and I agree that this appeals to people. However, I think that many, including myself, thrill to the idea of a champion like Aragorn. We don't want just that. We want the Frodo representation as well, but the Aragorn, and the Gandalf, and Eowyn, etc. representations are all a part of the equation that makes us loves these stories.
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I think Sam also fits the archtypal hero as well. I think he would have considered Rosie his princess. Some may consider him less of one because he doesn't reach "great heights" but I think he fits all of the above catagories.
One of my very favorite novels (which many people dismiss as a "romantic" novel) is Ivanhoe. I think that his was a most interesting story because while he ended up with the "fairy tale" ending he might have chhosen another. I just like the story is an "unusual" approach to that type of hero. No idea how that would or did influence Tolkien (although I'm pretty sure he read it).
I think that generally the archtypal hero is very popular in literature (and in all stories, movies, plays, video games etc.) because everyone imagines themselves in the place of the characters that they admire most. Everyone would like to believe that they have the capability to overcome all odds and then gain the "brass ring" (no pun intended) as their reward. While some people say that we are "raised" that way because we hear these types of stories all of our lives, I think it is the other way around. These stories are told and are the "most favorite" because they fill a need that humans have. We want to be brave and good and "win the good fight". Even if it doesn't always happen in real life, we'd like to think that it could. These stories are told and retold because we believe that it might and we like to have that belief supported from time to time.
 the Oracle
Ah...I see the screw-up fairy has visited me again!
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"Boromir, quit trying to cut off Frodo's head ..." ~ Blatant favoritism most annoying.
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lacedemonians
(Sat May 31 19:45:43)
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| UPDATED Sat May 31 20:35:05 |
Aule starts some great topics!
As BelladonnaTook noted, the object of the quest being the destruction of the ring is certainly a major and interesting point of difference from previous mythology. The similarity of mythological elements between Tolkien and Wagner’s “Der Ring Des Nibelungen” is intriguing to me. I can’t help but wonder if there was some (partly unconscious?) reaction on Tolkien’s part to the Teutonic myth (on its own way to becoming a theme for fascism). Is the hobbit himself representative of the genteel English gentleman? Have any critics written on this angle?
The image of the strong morally righteous hero who begins humbly but ultimately perseveres against all opposition is at the core of consciousness in the U.S. – Besides the movies, it is a standing joke that all politicians now claim that they were born in log cabins and grew up poor share croppers - before they became soldiers in Vietnam or Civil Rights marchers.
Archetypal heroism need not always involve a close brush with death – it is sometimes death itself. It is interesting how the mentor often sacrifices himself (EG. Gandalf the Grey, Obi Won Kenobi) and thus achieves transcendent immortality in our hearts. It hooks right into our primal emotions.
The initial reluctance of heroes to claim destiny is interesting. Frodo was reluctant, every Star Wars character except Obi Won and Princess Leia was reluctant - even Luke Skywalker was initially reluctant.
In the Iliad, there was a prophecy that Achilles had two possible paths, one was a long comfortable life and obscurity; the other was everlasting heroic glory but early death. I think it is telling that in the Odyssey when Odysseus met the shade of Achilles, Achilles said that it would have been better to be a living slave rather than a dead hero. Was this Homer’s acknowledgement of the grim reality (as well as the glory) of war?
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:02:43)
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Very well said. Yes, I believe that the hobbit is a representative of the genteel English gentleman, or rather the society of the English countryside in general, and that before industrialization.
Archetypal heroism is just a label. There are certain characteristics of it that we use to categorize and analyse, but the whole thing comes down to a launching point for discussion about this and related issues. There's so much in Tolkien's works to examine.
Homer's epics were relatively early examples of epic stories with archetypal heroes, tragedy, and dualism. It's the dualism that interests me, because there are always at least two sides to any issue, thought, or ideal. Achilles was presenting things from another perspective when he said that.
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| UPDATED Sat May 31 21:43:24 |
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"Is the hobbit himself representative of the genteel English gentleman? Have any critics written on this angle? "
Excellent observation! Prof. Tom Shippey (I'm reading his book, "Tolkien, Author of the Century" , at the moment) points out how all the hobbits are indeed representative of the English country way of life - and so they are in fact an anachronism in the pre-medieval world of Middle Earth.
But Tolkien uses this anachronism to great effect - the hobbits are "observers" of the world, they represent the reader in a way no other character in LOTR does. They know very little of the world outside the Shire (and the world knows even less about them; even Treebeard, oldest being in Middle Earth, has never heard of hobbits) and their naive view of the people and places they meet provides us, the reader, with our own place in the story.
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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It seems to me that Frodo is the hero of LOTR, although possibly my opinion would be different if I had read ROTK. He seems to go through most of the steps on a hero's journey (at least those that I remember), meeting the other figures:
The Herald: Gandalf
The Mentor: also Gandalf, but also Aragorn
The Threshold Guardian: this is probably the Nazgul who initially pursue him, but you might argue that Aragorn initially plays this role to an extent
The Goddess: Galadriel
Also, I believe that as Joseph Campbell has it, the hallmark of the hero is that he leaves his community (sometimes figuratively) and returns with something that will improve it (which can mean having accomplished something that will improve it), but has gained it through sacrifice. I have the impression that Frodo does that, although not having read ROTK is an unfortunate obstacle to my fully responding to this question.
Someone with a better background in this (or memory) is welcome to fill in. Thanks for another thought-provoking question, Aule.
Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:22:59)
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Frodo is certainly a hero in Lord of the Rings, but of a different kind than Aragorn. I always thought that LOTR had two main heroes: Frodo and Sam were kind of one hero together, and Aragorn was the other. Both played their part, and did what was necessary, but in different ways. Aragorn, to me, is more the archetypal hero. Frodo/Sam, along with Gollum, is more a psychological exploration.
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I think I'll have a better opinion of Aragorn after I finish the books, but the thing that sets Frodo apart from him (in my opinion, anyway) is the sacrifice Frodo makes, leaving the Shire and undertaking all the danger. It's possible I'll find out about some sacrifice of Aragorn's (but please don't tell me now!), but it seems to me that he was just drifting aimlessly before story and now he's drifting with the Fellowship. He doesn't seem to give anything up, although I of course can't be sure what he accomplishes at the end. Aragorn was one of the things I disliked about the movies.
Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?
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Aule
(Sat May 31 21:47:04)
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Drifting aimlessly? Not a chance. He labored for decades towards this end. Lord of the Rings represents the culmination of all his efforts, and his transcendance. He's a major theme.
Aragorn was one of the many things I liked about the movies. I was concerned that he would not be portrayed well, but I felt he was well portrayed. They somewhat emphasized or exaggerated his self doubt and the subsequent growth, but that wasn't a bad thing. Aragorn is among my favorite characters in any medium. LOTR is perhaps as much about Aragorn as it is about Frodo.
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To clarify, I meant that the movie seemed to me to be portraying him this way, and I had to assume from his personality that he was probably doing important things. I've gotten the impression from other ringnuts also that Aragorn is as important to the story as Frodo, so I look forward to finishing the books and seeing/reading ROTK.
Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?
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Aule
(Sat May 31 22:11:44)
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Just don't mess with Aragorn!! 
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I didn't think I was at all upset that we were arguing, but when I saw the subject "That's okay..." in my e-mail notification I felt this huge wave of relief. Perhaps I'm too sensitive. Anyway, I'll let you especially know if my opinion changes! 
Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?
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I don't know, Aule. Vaunted film critic R. Ebert says Jackson wasn't "brave" because he downplayed the hobbits and emphasized Aragorn as a "swashbuckling hero."
I disagree, because my perception of Aragorn is that of a classic archetypal hero because he displays a certain human sensitivity and "heart," that makes him much more than a swashbuckler.
But my real theory is Ebert looks like a hobbit, and you probably look more like Aragorn -- so you're both biased about this!
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Aule
(Sun Jun 1 11:13:45)
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Hey, why do you think I grew the beard?
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
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