What I would like to address today is "The Black Speech" and the origins of this language. I would as well like you to consider thoughts on this subject in relation to Moral ethics. "Is there such a thing as an good and evil language. If words are the hallmark of communication. Then this poses an interesting question on the end result of such philosophical imports, as to the nature of Good and Evil. Perhaps Tolkien would concede that there is indeed such a thing as an evil language?
"It has been said before that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years," and that he had preferred to make it the language of all those that served him, but he did not succeed. After doing some research about the Black Speech, it has been written that many of the words that were in the Third Age were wide-spread amongst the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. Interesting food for thought don't you think?. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor." Later it is stated that the Olog-hai, the fallen Troll-race bred by Sauron in the Third Age, knew no other tongue than the Black Speech of Barad-dûr. Olog-hai was itself a Black Speech word. "Do you think the phrase "Black Speech" was created by Sauron! Or was it a derogatory term given in disdain by others, a kind of slang term.
It is well documented that Tolkien himself did not like the Black Speech at all. In my research I read that, “One admirer sent him a steel drinking goblet, but to his disappointment he discovered that it was "engraved with the terrible words seen on the Ring. He of course has never drunk from it, but used it for tobacco ash" In one of his letters, and I quote:
He evidently shared the opinion of Elves and Men back in the Third Age, who certainly did not think any better of the Black Speech than they did of the other tongues used by Orcs: "It was so full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words that other mouths found it difficult to compass, and few indeed were willing to make the attempt". There being no objective standards for what constitutes a "harsh and hideous" sound or a "vile" word, these statements must be seen as subjective, reflecting a general prejudice against all things Orkish and everything proceeding from Sauron (though it can of course be argued that this prejudice was a thousand times deserved). ".
Do you think it is difficult to pinpoint the "harsh and hideous sounds...What, then, in your opinion is perceived as unpleasant? It is stated that the Orcs used a uvular r, like the R that is common in German and French and that the Eldar found this sound distasteful. It has been suggested that this was the standard pronunciation of r in the ancient Black Speech. The Black Speech also had certain consonant clusters that did not appear in contemporary Sindarin: sn, thr, sk initially and rz, zg finally. Whatever the cause, the language was generally perceived as singularly harsh: When Gandalf quoted the inscription on the Ring during the council of Elrond, "the change in his voice was considerable. Gandalf’s voice suddenly became ominous, commanding, and callous.
So where did the vocabulary of the Black Speech come from? Surely the calculating Sauron wasn’t particularly interesting in being a linguist anymore than his servants he probably just invented words randomly. This is probably true in some cases, but if one examines a little closer it appears that he also picked words from many sources, even the Elvish languages: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca or a dialect for his subjects, and was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times" There is more and many here on the boards very well informed to do so... So I wonder what you think?
So in summation:"What do you think happened to the Black Speech after the fall of Sauron?" And is there such a thing as a evil language? 
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Aule
(Sun Jun 1 11:34:33)
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Would you cut it out with these frivolous, pointless, off-topic threads? 
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I think it has a lot to do with people's personal opinions. A lot of people I know don't like the more gutteral languages such as German, Hebrew and so on. I personally find them much more interesting and I prefer the sound to the more Romantic languages (no offense intended to any speakers of said Romantic languages). Those that don't like the harsher sounding languages feel that they sound angry, mean, ugly, etc. This could also be why those in Middle Earth don't like Black Speech--the sound of the language itself is harsher and more callous sounding. I think it also as to do with the speakers of the language itself. Elves, men, hobbits, etc all dislike orcs and Sauron (well, any of the smart ones dislike Sauron anyway), and so I think that colors their perception of the language those speakers use also. So I don't think there really is such thing as an "evil" language--I think it's based on the perception of others to that language and the speakers of said language.
Take for example a sword--the sword itself is not evil, but it can be used for evil (same with any weapon). Black speech in and of itself is not necessarily evil, but can be used for evil--I'm not well versed enough to know if Black Speech has an actual negative effect when spoken, but in the movie when Gandalf speaks it, I remember birds taking flight and it seemed to bother Frodo.
I must wield the cleaver, it's most annoying.
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Hi daduke: Your thoughts are well put,. and worthy of more thought!
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MatrixMaster
(Sun Jun 1 12:22:06)
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 UPDATED Sun Jun 1 15:16:51 |
Surely the term "black speech" was a derogatory phrase created by those who could not understand the beauty of a unified middle earth under a system of sublime control.
The "black speech" has long interested me. Is there a place you know of that I might be able to learn it?
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul
Ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!
The Matrix has you!
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I was serious about wanting to learn Mordor.
Or was Mordor one of the languages that Tolkien didn't complete but rather just devised the few phrases he needed?
The Matrix has you!
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Or was Mordor one of the languages that Tolkien didn't complete but rather just devised the few phrases he needed?
Good question? But I'm not sure about the answer! Maybe someone else will know.
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CTS-1
(Sun Jun 1 12:52:42)
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| UPDATED Sun Jun 1 12:55:46 |
Paul:
In your original post, you stated:
"Surely the calculating Sauron wasn’t particularly interesting in being a linguist anymore than his servants he probably just invented words randomly."
I am not so sure that that can necessarily be taken for granted.
I do not pretend to be an expert on linguistic theory, but what little of it I recall indicated that the form, structure and vocabulary of a language can affect the thoughts expressed within that language. This was very important as humans developed both more complex languages and paradigms for looking at the world around them.
Sauron was formerly a Maia of Aule, and as such would tend to be a creator and maker, just without the generosity of his former leader. If Sauron was to create a language from whole cloth, or import another language, he would want it to serve his ends.
As such, Sauron would desire to craft a language that served his ends. To the extent a language could be "evil" inasmuch as evil intents and thoughts could be better expressed than others, it would be in Sauron's best interests to tilt his language in that direction.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Aule
(Sun Jun 1 13:26:43)
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I think that any language that Sauron created for his minions would serve his purposes and nothing more. In other words, I don't think it would a thing of beauty, but rather something that would be easily understood by the dim witted orcs and yet allow for sufficient communication, so as to facilitate Sauron's designs.
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Always the voice of reason combined with an elaborate response. Thanks for the input bud...
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Intriguing topic Paul... but then you always come up trumps!
Hmmm... as far as I know no existing language has ever been labelled 'evil' except perhaps by enemies. I suppose the sound of Russian would have sounded pretty evil in the 50's in the USA... Involuntarily I have to think about 'Evil' speak in real life... usually these so-called demonic languages and incantations used at pagan rites are a derivate of Latin, often putting words backwards. They're not real languages. And yes, some real languages have become outlawed and forbidden but this had nothing to do with the evilness of said languages, but with the role a language plays in underlining national identity.
So, I could just say that no language is inherently evil or good; a language is all-encompassing. Language is by definition objective. You may not like the sound of it, but that does not make it inherently bad (it took me six years of German to realise that!) It is in his use of language that Tolkien leaves the world of science and moves into the realm of fantasy.
Now, to steer the debate in another direction: it seems to me that moviemakers do attribute certain qualities to certain languages/accents, liberally tapping into subconscious prejudice that the sound of these languages reflect towards an American audience. Why do so many vilains speak 'the queen's English?' Not to mention the awful mock Russian/German accents baddies and terrorists always seem to have. And why is everyone who talks with a French accent usually a trampy foreign exchange student or a conniving two-timing liar? So, apparently, there is a subjective quality about language after all, one that moviemakers recognize. And perhaps Tolkien did so too, when he devised the Black Speech.
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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Vatch out! Broc vill come looking vor you...!
If you see angry poultry in the distance...duck (no pun intended) for cover!
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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This message has been deleted by an administrator
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so the Black Speech is probably a corruption of the elvish languages, and therefore offensive to elvish ears
NOW I know why we Dutch hate the sound of German so much! Dutch is an older branch of the same language-tree! So in a way, German is corrupted Dutch! Thanks for clearing that up, I always wondered why I disliked German even though I am fluent in it...
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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the elves find it actually painful to listen to it
Indeed...
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Hi Bella, thanks for your thoughts "I gotta go right now! but I'll be back tomorrow, for a more indepth response!
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ywrose1
(Sun Jun 1 14:25:00)
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| UPDATED Sun Jun 1 14:58:57 |
Interesting question, per usual.
As everyone has said I don't think that language itself is "bad" except if you have a reason not to want to hear it. For instance, if it is the language of your enemies or one that reminds you of a particularly bad time or event. Language that is very different from your own can sound very "wrong" to you and can be very difficult to learn and use and can of course make you dislike it for those reasons as well.
I find it interesting that some of the words are "twisted elvish" so to speak as orcs are "twisted elves" so to speak. Maybe some of the reason that it causes elves pain.
I have found in another sort of "experiment" that the type of language or the sound of it might be very important. To my ears elvish is very pleasant as I have been raised in English or Spanish. I have started training my two year old dog in elvish, Sindarin actually (had to start learning it myself first). He already knows most of the commands in English. However, he responds much better to the elvish commands. I think one of the reasons is because I only use these words when I am speaking to him and therefore he only associates them with things he is supposed to do (which is why I needed another language). But another reason I feel is that the language is naturally softer and easier on the ears to hear. He listens specifically for them and definitely responds easier and happier and more relaxed if that makes sense.
I wanted to mention here the fact that people (not as much now but before when we were more superstitious I guess) definitely tend to give words or certain words a power. I come from a long line of Southern women. My grandmothers always made me laugh with their conversations. They would speak in a normal voice and then when they got to a certain words they would drop to a bare whisper and say that word and then continue normally. The one that always made me smile was when I got older and the word "sex" would come up. However, I remember it most when we would be discussing someone who was ill or in trouble. "Well, you know that she is doing better but she does have cancer." "He was such a nice boy but seems to have gotten on the wrong track. He'll be in prison for several years." Many people assume that is because some words can't be used in "polite company" and that may be for some of them. But when I was really young I asked why we whispered those words and my grandmothers would both say that we just didn't talk about those things. And it wasn't because you didn't want people to hear but almost like you didn't want "it" (the thing you were whispering) to hear. Very scary as a child. Some of my grandmother's friends would "cross" themselves (as a blessing I would assume) when they said words. So while the words themselves weren't or aren't evil or bad, I think that at least in my close past people have given them that power for whatever reason.
Thanks,
 the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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A dog that understands Sindarin, how cool is that?!? How do you say: 'heel' in Sindarin anyway?
Great post Ywrose, btw... yeah, I guess no language is evil per se, but there will always be topics and words considered to be taboo. No matter what time we live in.
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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That is pretty cool Rose! What made you think to do that? If I ever get another dog I'll have to remember that.
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Hey Legolas!
I had to use heria because I needed to use dero for stay and dartho for wait. That was getting to be too many "d" words for him to differentiate.
I did it for several reasons. First, because the words that you normally use for dog training I use a lot in other connotations. Instead, of making him come right to me when I say come every time he just has to come into the house or something. Dogs are like small children in that consistency gets you everywhere. If 4 times I make him come and sit directly in front of me like he needs to for competition obedience but the rest of the day he just sort of hangs out in my vicinity, why do I get upset when we practice and he doesn't know that now I mean to do it "right"?  . So I will get better response to the commands because I only use them for exactly what I mean.
Also, Sindarin is very helpful in that it doesn't have lots of words that sound alike (dero and daro are an exception). Dogs as they learn what you want will try to anticipate you and will start doing something with the first sound of the word. Sit, stay, spin, stand all sound way too familiar. Quint has excellent facial expressions and he actually gets confused wrinkles on his forehead sometimes looking at me.
Thirdly, we are training in search and rescue work and when you are on a site there are tons of people and noises. Lots of other handlers are yelling the same commands at their dogs, you and your dog are tired and stressed. Yes, your dog listens for your voice but it is extremely helpful if they also have a totally different language to key in on. It helps you two to work as a team better. Many teams here in the US train in Dutch or German (many search and rescue dogs are German shepherds so that is why). However, I wanted a completely different language all together.
I really like Sindarin because it is so soft and flowing and Quint really responds. I think the softer the commands the more it encourages them to listen closely so as not to miss anything. We compete in obedience and hope to in agility as well plus basic commands and search and rescue commands. When we are done, he will have a 40 words Sindarin vocabulary. Which of course will include "Maer hu" (I can't do the little roof over the "u" sorry) which means "Good dog". He already knows that one .
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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I had to be sort of creative because of course Sindarin was not made for dog training. However, for "heel" I have used heria which means "begin". The added bonus there is the first sound is like "heel".
I will always remember my grandmothers and their talking like that. I loved to spend time around them especially when I was very little. The smells even come back when I am typing now. But that made a huge impression on me still now. I do not whisper those words myself but when I think them I think them in a whisper (if that makes any sense).
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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Hi ywrose, intriguing story! surprising twist on the subject at hand. A dog that understands elvish commands. I would love to see that!
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Yes, he is unusual in many ways.
I figured if the elves could talk to animals they must have known something.
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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lacedemonians
(Tue Jun 3 11:29:27)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 11:32:16 |
[... I asked why we whispered those words and my grandmothers would both say that we just didn't talk about those things. And it wasn't because you didn't want people to hear but almost like you didn't want "it" (the thing you were whispering) to hear ...]
That is simply fascinating. It makes me wonder, was there a fear that the words were "charged" in some sense and that they could bring in Evil?
On the other hand, perhaps the reason "sex" was whispered was because talking about "sex" in conversational terms might give the impression that Sex is casual. "sex" being whispered stressed its importance and the necessity of keeping it private.
I remember once when a kid accidentally fell down on the ground, I heard a funny phrase from an older person. She said "the ground jumped up and bit you!"
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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Hey lacedemonians! How are you?
I definitely got the feeling when I was little that some of the words did somehow hold some sort of evil power- that they were "charged" in some way. I was always amazed at how normal this was to everyone to hear and say. There was no pause in the discussion or anything. Their voise would just drop to a whisper immediately and then continue on. That was how you said certain words.
However, I do think that the term "sex" or anything sexual for that matter was more of a "proper" type of taboo. That's why that one always sort of made me laugh. My grandmothers were not wealthy or "important" in society in any way but they were nothing if not proper. I am afraid I came as something of quite a shock.
Being from the South and Texas I have lots of phrases in my vocabulary like the one you mentioned. I've heard the one about the ground biting me quite a bit (and something about fools rushing in... yadda...yadda...yadda following it). I have some very favorites that I always remember and use (much to the hilarity of everyone around me).
One of my mom's favorite sayings was used when we went through stores and I like every child "wanted" everything hanging everywhere. My mother's reply was always, "Well, Lisa, people in hell want ice water." Got lots of good looks from the people in the stores.
Also good:
"Well, don't worry... on a galloping horse" used when I (or any child) had spilled something on myself or gotten dirty somehow and we didn't have time to get cleaned up. This was supposed to mean who would notice.
"Hells Bells"- that was a very strong cussing term for the older women of my family
"Gone a** over teakettle"- yes, this term was used by my grandmothers when someone (me) fell down- apparently not as bad a term as I thought
I can't even begin to think of them all. But everyonce and awhile I'll say something and people will look at me strangely and I'll know I just used one. The joys of southern living!
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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Lisa you have really made me My mother and grandmother would always say things like the expressions you said. I have heard alot of the ones you mentioned actually!
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I thought I was the only one. People around here haven't ever heard them and they love it when I come out with one.
We're you an accident prone child? I had a habit of doing without thinking at times. Gotten over a lot of that (possibly because I don't really care for pain). But I miss my grandmothers- one is gone and one is not really herself any more. I am very lucky to be the age I am and still have her though. I'm glad I still use the sayings every once and awhile.
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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No I wasn't accident prone as a child!...But I did get in trouble for only doing things when I felt like doing them..
The grandmother with all the sayings is gone but not really! My mum reminds me more and more of her as she gets older. Which is a good thing.
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lacedemonians
(Tue Jun 3 16:54:35)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 18:49:02 |
That is great stuff! Your Grandmothers sound like they had wisdom in raising children. I wonder if part of the reason "Dr. Phil" is so popular is because of his straightforward approach delivered with sprinklings of "down home" phrases. For example, does the humor act like a sugar pill to help his audience swallow the message; and do they help convey an image of conservative respectability?
Something I learned from the World War II generation of men was the concept of discipline for boys via strong words.
For example, I remember once saying "this sucks" in front of my Grandmother and my veteran Grandfather took me aside and told me (not yell) essentially "we don't $%* use *#$ profanity in front of women!" Because I never heard my Grandfather swear, it was like being hit in the head by a ton of bricks, and to this day, that is something I just don't do.
Another time, while on a long boy-scout hike, my scoutmaster (another veteran) ordered all scouts to get in their sleeping bags. I said "I'm not gonna 'cause its too hot!". Once again, he took me aside and in a tone of voice I will never forget: "When I tell you to #@& do something you WILL $(*# do it because I am in charge here and I don't want to hear your (#&! I remember I noticed an anthill and I was wondering if I could crawl into it. Needless to say I spent the night in the toe of the sleeping bag. And guess what, the next day it was bitterly cold and there was ice on the ground.
What I realize now about those two men (long dead) is the positive way they would chew you out. They didn't humiliate, they didn't yell, they simply used a tone of voice that brooked no opposition and they selected strong words very precisely and to the point. When they were done, they treated you exactly as before and were as nice and cool as they ever were.
P.S. I wasn't sure if you cared, that is why I just used your handle "ywrose1" in public. Mustn’t forget the power of Naming you know.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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I don't mind you using either name. Damian always uses my given name. However, most people likely won't know who you are talking about (I will most of the time).
One thing that actually that I thought of when Athene brought up the Naming idea was how easily I have taken on the name ywrose. I think of myself as that now too which is really sort of strange. Never used it before but I identify with it now after being here. Oh well, the things I think about.
And may I ask a question- could you tell me how you pronouce your screen name? When I read it in my head I pronounce it 3 different ways at times (I can pronounce your given name). So this way I can know what it sounds like.
My grandmothers were/are wonderful women- very tough. Both from Great Depression/ Dust bowl stock (New Mexico and West Texas). My grandfathers were as well. I didn't really know my mom's dad but my father's father was amazing. I think he's still my favorite man to today- I love my dad too so don't get me wrong. My grandpa was 6th grade educated and a cotton farmer and I remember him as very strong and very soft- both. I do know he did not put up with cussing around the ladies either. And he always told me I could do anything I wanted- anything. There are lots of people that tell you that for lots of reasons but for some reason I actually believed him.
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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lacedemonians
(Wed Jun 4 00:24:32)
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| UPDATED Wed Jun 4 01:07:16 |
The Depression/World War II generation was quite a crowd of Men and Women - weren't they? They were the ones who made the U.S. the strong nation that it is today. Your grandfather sounds like the epitome of the best of that time. Conservative values but with open-mindedness; sounds like he cared about you - that's for sure. I know better than to confuse education with wisdom, intelligence, or compassion. They have very little to do with each other.
Lacedaemon is the region about Sparta in Greece, the Lacedemonians were the people of the area. The term "Spartans" and "Lacedemonians" are often used interchangably. My ancestry (and much family culture) is partly from this area.
Lacedemonians is spelled different ways, "Lacedaemonians", "Lakedemonians", etc.
Pronunciation (that I use): Lack eh deh moan ians.
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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Very interesting name! I was wondering where it came from as well . And I now know how to pronounce it. I couldn't decide a soft "c" sound or hard. Also long "e" or not. Very confusing for my poor brain.
Greece is one place I would love to see also Egypt, Russia, Australia and Great Britain. Oh, and the Galapagos. But being able to travel is not a luxury that I enjoy right now.
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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FOOLS RUSH IN
Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread
And so I come to you my love
My heart above my head
Though I see the danger there
If there's a chance for me
Then I don't care
Fools rush in, where wise men never go
But wise men never fall in love
So how are they to know
When we met, I felt my life begin
So open up your heart and let
This fool rush in
Fools rush in, where wise men never go
But wise men never fall in love
So how are they to know
When we met, I felt my life begin
So open up your heart and let
This fool rush in
Just open up your heart and let
This fool rush in
Well open up your heart and let
This fool rush in
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Haven't heard it in a long time!!
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Great topic, Paul, as usual!
Performative utterances immediately sprang into mind when I read your post. A performative utterance is a phrase which actually accomlishes the action that it states. For example, when Pastor says "I now pronounce you husband and wife", he isn't merely informing others that they are now wed, the statement itself is the act which makes them wed. It performs the action. Using language to pronounce a curse works in the same way.
Now, isn't this how magic works? The words have actual power over reality and are not used to inform or describe, but to accomplish acts. The speaker of words of magic wields great power to control the physical and possibly the spiritual world.
The Black Speech is a magic language, and conveys power on those who know how to use it. The common Orcs made limited use of the language, but given what we have heard of their conversation in LOTR, their use of the language had the effect of cursing the object of their remarks, or releasing negative and destructive energy in their vicinity. The Orcs may have been the hopeless creatures that they are because they were taught to use a magic language that effectively cursed, or bound, their spirits every time they spoke, like a verbal self-poisoning.
In the greater sphere, Sauron and his Nazgul captains certainly used the Black Speech for greater magical purposes, with intent to control the acts and destinies of others. On the One Ring, Sauron engraved a terrible curse on all those who owned the other rings of power, and the engraving of those words on that Ring was the actual utterance of the spell that caused the One Ring to control all the others. I would say that the whole point of the Black Speech was to act as a conduit for furthering Sauron's purposes. The speaking of that speech could harm, rend and destroy. Hearing it could take away one's will. So, the Elves would sense the harm in the words and feel the pain those words were trying to inflict on the listener. In this sense, yes, the language was itself Evil, as it was an extension of Sauron's own will.
In Middle-Earth, we are in a realm of magic all the time, where certain languages did have magical powers to lay spells and control things, but I think that that concept, with regard to performative utterances, is not too far removed from how we use language today.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Splendid addition to the debate Athene! I hadn't thought of that aspect of language: its ritualistic role.
Must ponder this in my sleep... more tomorrow (if work isn't too busy and my boss doesn't snoop around on my internet usage)
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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Another thing to think about is the concept of Naming, of being able to control a thing by knowing its true Name.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I had thought of the Naming idea. I have always been very enthralled with that idea.
However, I hadn't thought about performative utterances. We have a lot of those that we never really think of. The thing they always say in court about the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" comes to mind as well. In the Episcopal church half of the service is made up of that "kind" of thing. I do suppose religious utterances are a little different but not really. When people say specific prayers like The Lord's Prayer or the Hail Mary most are meaning something much more than just the words.
I am more surrounded by the "power" of language that I realized.
the Oracle
I live at the dumb end of the leash.
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Adam naming the animals is regarded as the first act of dominion over them.
"Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature that was its name."
-Genesis 2:19
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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In Middle-Earth, we are in a realm of magic all the time, where certain languages did have magical powers to lay spells and control things, but I think that that concept, with regard to performative utterances, is not too far removed from how we use language today.
We know that words of any language cannot move mountains, but they can move the many. Humanity is often ready to fight and die more for words or phrases spoken or uttered than for anything else. Words it seems influence thought, stir feeling, and produce action. It is the priests, prophets, intellectuals & magicians that amplify or emphasize this significance and have played a decisive role in our cultural morays, rites & ceremonies.
It pleased me very much Athene to read your post. …performative utterances beautiful train of thought! and Thanks
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Thank you, Paul. As I said, it just popped into my mind that you were talking about the power contained in language.
Humanity is often ready to fight and die more for words or phrases spoken or uttered than for anything else.
I hadn't quite thought of it this way, but you are right. It's interesting that when we are trying to win a point, we construct elaborate arguments of words, as though we are writing greats spells to make our point of view the real one.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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1. Paul...great topic. It is interesting, and I think we can have some fun with it. I am frustrated now, however, because in trying to bring quotes in from other parts of the thread I have now lost my response twice...once 10 points in and once 7. I am going to try this last time to recreate what I did before.
2. Unfortunately, I do not have as much to say as I would have had this been done yesterday...Athene stole my thunder... Great post, btw. Performances utterances...not in my thought process...but the thoughts of language in the world of magic were along the lines in which I was thinking.
3. Athene. I was looking today at a bottle of Linkwood 20 yr. Too expensive for now...maybe someday!
4. In terms of language, I wonder about the Southrons, the Easterlings and the other Human peoples under the sway of Sauron. What language did they speak? Did they speak Common? Did they have their own cultural languages? Were they, too forced to learn Black Speech? If so, how often did they have to use it and were they allowed other languages?
5. Tolkien, when creating his Black Speech, I note, used awkward and unusual letter combinations (at least with regard to English). Note the use of some "zg"s, which I do not believe appear anywhere in English, as well as the frequent use of hard consonants, like "k" or "t". I feel that some of these techniques, either because of the prolific use of hard consonants or uncomfortable and awkward letter combinations, combined with the harsh gutterals, make Black Speech difficult for the English speaker to read, let alone speak or hear.
6. I would like to respectfully disagree with the poster above who noted that language, like a sword, is a tool. It is neither good nor evil, but reflects good or evil based on the use to which it is put. While I do agree that such is the case in our world, such was most definitely not the case in Tolkien's Middle-earth, a land where magic existed and was in use.
7.
what little of it I recall indicated that the form, structure and vocabulary of a language can affect the thoughts expressed within that anguage...what little of it I recall indicated that the form, structure and vocabulary of a language can affect the thoughts expressed within that language
As the above person noted, a language, I think specifically one created for a specific purpose, can be evil in that by creating an attitudinal (is that a word) slant (more on that next point) based on tone and/or the number of words denoting "evil" acts as related to the number and availability of "good" acts can create (or result from) a societal propensity toward those acts.
For instance, if a society has 50 words for murder of various types, and only one for peace and understanding...either the society has too many lawyers (making distinctions) or perhaps murder is not seen in the same negative light. This is one way to look at Black Speech.
8. I think of the Native Americans. I do not believe (if memory serves) that their culture had a word for personal property ownership, because the land was seen as communal, and a resource to be shared. They did not (culturally) have a word for a concept alien to them. The issues arising from such would therefor not have a hold on them. They did have issues with "tribal land rights", so understood the concept of trespassing, but not in a personal way. This is the same thing I am considering. If you take a society, give them a language, and leave out concepts, would they learn those concepts and create new words from them, or would those concepts simply not be.
It can also be argued that language suits society in other ways. Societies have developed their own languages for centuries, and they grew and developed based on the culture in which they were located. It makes a certain degree of sense that a language created by someone wholly evil, meant to expand his influence and power, with magic, could be evil in and of itself.
9. I remember from somewhere that the greatest frustration of Morgoth was that he could not create anything really new. Elves were captured, tortured and twisted until they became Orcs...they reproduced and a new breed of life grew. Trolls were created by the dark forces in mockery of and out of jealousy of Ents. It makes sense that the servant of Morgoth, Sauron, also could not create, and his language was a perversion of the language of Elves, but was full of fear and hate.
10. I would argue that the term "Black Speech" was created out of revulsion by the enemies of Sauron, in the same way that the Nazgul were called the "Black Riders". I do not really have any facts to back that up...just intuition.
Finally! I think I am done...
Are you glad this is the short version?
Morgoth, frustration...not creative...Elves Orcs Ents Trolls Dragons Maia Sauron could not create, only twist, pervert or destroy...Elvish to Black Speech
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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That's the short version Holy Smoke SBV.....
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I don't smoke...but thank you anyway.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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| UPDATED Mon Jun 2 14:04:33 |
This message has been deleted by an administrator
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I don't think language can be considered in an isolated way. It needs to be considered in context of superstition/religion, classic usage vs common usage, and intent. History was handed down via the use of language until such time as writing forms evolved. I feel any oral historian of old would naturally imbue his words with meaning and intent pertinent to his experiences, either conciously or subconsciously. Perhaps this is relevant to ywrose's comments about discussions among her elders, eg: speaking of cancer might make it happen etc. Those to whom the elder was relating the stories would assimilate by nuance knowledge of the unspoken things. I do not believe any language as such is evil, only used for evil intent - if that is the intent of the user.
The Hobbits are known for their love of joviality and mirth, this is bound to be reflected in their speech patterns (think modern day Aussies and Kiwis and all our colloquiallisms!). The Elves are creatures of immense beauty and their language has naturally evolved to reflect the flowing organic nature of their lifetimes/styles. The Dwarves are the 'worker bees', one would expect their speech to be 'chunky' or utilitarian. The wizards on the other hand are worldly-wise and learned individuals who know best how to transmit an important message when necessary, so their speech can reflect this when required. The Black Speech appears to be a bastardisation of Elvish (the Orcs were tortured Elves), and wielded by a user with evil intent carries portents of evil to those who hear it - all those unspoken things passed on by the oral historians of M-E. The harsh-soundingness and ominous feel of the Black Speech may be attributable to its variance with the speech of other M-E races. They know not that it is evil, but they know it doesn't fit in with anything they know as 'good'. Remember when Frodo takes the ring from the fire and finds the inscription. He doesn't feel threatened by what he sees there, but Gandalf is alarmed. He knows it is written in the Black Speech and knows the grave nature of all that that entails, due to his knowledge of ancient lore.
I live in New Zealand where our first nation race is the New Zealand Maori. Until the 1960s Maori children were not allowed to use their native tongue at school and were expected not to use it in public. There are many elderly Maori now who can't speak the language. The regular punishments taught them not to. Maori was considered our equivalent of the Black Speech - no pun intended. Harsh to the ear, used only for bad/secretive purposes and not to be fostered. When I was at school it was accepted that if a child was speaking Maori he was 'no good' or 'not to be trusted', and the language was disregarded. A long distance toll operator was dismissed from her job for answering the phone with 'Kia Ora' (hello in Maori). In the 1970s it was legislated for as part of the school curriculum and is now an official language of our country - all government departments must have a Maori name. It's well accepted now, but like anything else, it has taken a generation for that acceptance to become universal.
So the question remains really, and I'm hoping one of the more well-versed Tolkienites will be able to shed some light: When the will of Sauron is overthrown and the quest is completed, there will still be those (Gandalf et al)who know some of the Black Speech, even if they choose not to use it. Will the remaining knowledge of the language be assimilated into other M-E speech, losing some of its forboding and becoming common. My feeling is that language, like a lot of things, may be gradually lost through non-use, but can't be 'uncreated'.
Like ywrose I too schooled a dog in another language. For me it was Australasian Signed English - the sign language taught to deaf children in NZ and Australia. My dog was 8 years old when I started teaching her, and she learned easily.
...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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My suspicion is that Black Speech will take a LONG time to vanish utterly, because the Orcs know it, and I am sure that to a degree it has permeated the cultures of the races of Man under the dominion of Sauron.
Of course, that is just my speculation, and I could be wrong.
I liked the fact that you are the first to relate languages of different races of M-e to the cultures from whence they came. The same can also be said of the speech (both in Common and in Entish) of the Ents.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Hi Bellbird, "excellent post"! very thoughtful and sincere! 
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Thanks to Paul and all the other posters here. The subject is fascinating and people clearly have well defined ideas and opinions on it, taking from their own knowledge and from text. It makes good reading.
...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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Okay TubbyAxePipe, we'll wait for you.
...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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I hope you come back...I would love to here what you think!
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BB-15
(Mon Jun 2 19:43:54)
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Hi Paul; Great thread as always.
A major part of this discussion IMHO is how do we relate to a language which is described as;
"devised by Sauron in the Dark Years...Tolkien himself did not like the (Orc) Speech at all...(a language with) harsh and hideous sounds".
How again do we relate to this when the world trend is that there are no "hideous sounds" in language, just as there are no hideous cultures?
1. The mythical world vs. the real world. Taking a point from Athene;
"The... Speech (of Sauron) is a magic language, and conveys power on those who know how to use it."
That is correct in the sense that language could be used as a weapon or a catalyst for evil forces. While there is doubt about such things in our modern world, in the Tolkien world this is absolutely true. The speech of Sauron was a weapon of evil.
2. Moving from this absolute, the sound of Sauron's/Orc language was composed of those linguistic elements that Tolkien most disliked. This is Tolkien's personal taste. As was pointed out by Bellbird such Western conventions about language are changing rapidly, using the Maori language of New Zealand as an example.
"(Maori)...is now an official language of our country - all government departments must have a Maori name."
Another example of this trend toward the broadening of what is acceptable language to our ears has no better candidate than Klingon from Star Trek. At first devised as the "ugliest" language possible, Klingon has received acceptance in speech and in writing among a small but dedicated group and the Klingon characters are widely popular.
3. What is the most relevant meaning of the Orc language today IMHO? I have often maintained that the message to us about the Orcs is genetic engineering gone mad. Evidence of this is clear from Tolkien;
"The Orcs...it is said that they had no language of their own, but took what they could of other tongues and perverted it to their own liking; yet they made only brutal jargons, scarcely sufficient even for their own needs" (Appendix F, LOTR)
The reason the Orcs could not create a vibrant language and culture is because they are genetically damaged people, mutilated and tortured by Melkor/Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. I can only feel pity for the Orcs for in the long tale of suffering in Tolkien, there is no greater misery than that suffered by the Orcs from their evil masters.
<<<<<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<SPOILERS>>>>>>>>>
I recently saw X-Men 2, a rare sci-fi/fantasy film that in some ways can be positively compared to the LOTR films. In X-Men 2 there is a scientist who makes slaves of certain mutants through surgery and drugs. In one hideous example he mutilates his own son reducing him to a vegetative state.
This scientist is a recent example of a long list of characters in story, myth and legend who defy the Moral Law and wish to play God. That is the key to Melkor/Morgoth creating and torturing the Orcs, first the will to be God, but then the hate and anger that results from the realization that he could never be God; a hate spewed upon millions in Tolkien's world but familiar in our own world too; as seen in the death camps of the Holocaust and medical/;\psychiatric experiments gone mad.
The Orc speech to me then is not the true evil but the symptom of a greater, terrible evil.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I don't know what to say right now except I've going to sleep on this jewel of a reply! Because it's late for me.
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I don't have time to participate right now, but I'll be back. It's great to see you here again- seems like it's been a while.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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BB-15
(Tue Jun 3 11:00:02)
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Yes athene; I am rationing my replies to about 1 per day to give my arms a rest. But I regularly keep track of the Board.
Take care, BB ;-)
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lacedemonians
(Tue Jun 3 11:13:11)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 11:14:08 |
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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Do you have any idea how exciting it is to see "paul hawthorne" under "Created by" on the boards? I love your discussions.
Okay, first I have to admit that I have not read most of the other replies because I have to get offline soon and can't be sure this thread won't be lost or too big for my computer when I return. So I'm well aware that whatever I say is likely just the echo of someone else's thoughts.
First of all, it seems to me that Sauron rules the Uruk-hai at least somewhat by fear, right? So it makes sense that he would create an ugly language, possibly calling it Black Speech to make it sound fearsome, in order to communicate with them. Can you imagine Sauron or Lurtz speaking Elvish?
Speaking of speaking Elvish (), it also seems reasonable that (as I gathered by skimming the other replies) Black Speech is a corruption of Elvish that makes the ears of Elves hurt even to hear it. What an excellent advantage it would be to have a language your most formidable enemies couldn't stand to learn.
So then...is there such a thing as an evil language? I don't believe so. I think that in general, a thing or being can only be evil at the moment at which they are acting upon an evil intention. (I say "thing" so that no one has to point out to me that the One Ring had evil will even though it's not a person.) Language itself cannot have intention, so I don't believe it can be evil. It seems to me that the "evil" attributed to the language simply meant "the language of the evil ones." Furthermore, in Middle-Earth, I'd think that only evil people or extreme exceptions such as Gandalf would know such a tongue. Any "ordinary" citizen who happened to be able to speak or read it would be highly suspect.
Regarding the quote about Tolkien's goblet, I of course haven't read the whole passage, but it seems from what you quoted that he wasn't necessarily rejecting it because it had Black Speech on it, but because it had the One Ring's inscription on it. This inscription is pretty evil. Similarly, you might not reject an engraved goblet simply because it had German on it, but you might because it said "Jawohl, Hitler." (Spelling is off, I'm sure.)
Now, this might have been pointed out before, and if it has I would appreciate some direction to the initial post that mentioned it. But does anyone else think that the Black Speech alphabet, assuming that's what is used on the One Ring, is beautiful? It's an interesting contrast to the harsh (I believe "harsh" is an objective description, while "hideous" is subjective) sound of the language. This could be a hint that the language is not intended to be portrayed as evil in itself. After all, there's a good side to it. On the other hand, it may be representative of the One Ring itself, which looks appealing, but offers corruption, harshness and hideousness.
Thanks again for another great topic, paul!
Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?
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your more than welcome rebo. nice post too..
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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