Circles have been symbols of power or unity for thousands of years – think of the stone circles and henges of ancient Britain, for example.
The circle, with no beginning or end, can be seen as an image of mystical perfection.
A ring on the finger can be a symbol of status, power or love.
Tolkien used many circle images and circular plot devices in his writings.
I’ll give you an (obvious) example of an image:
The rings of power
And what I call a “circular plot device” – this is more complex. Many of Tolkien’s stories within the main plot form perfect circles; a chain of events occur that complete a cycle. I’ll explain it better with an example:
(***spoiler***)
In the Silmarillion, Ungoliant destroys the Trees that give Light to the Valar.
The Silmarils embody that Light.
Earendil takes a Silmaril into the heavens and becomes a star.
In LOTR, the Light of Earendil is given to Frodo.
The Light is used to defeat Shelob, who is a descendent of Ungoliant.
That is one of the more complicated ones! There are many more.
Which other circle images/symbols/plots can you spot?
Looking forward to your responses 
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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Excellent observation, Belladonna! Wow. All I can think of off the top of my head ( and I will try to ponder it more) is Bilbo going there and back again, and the ring making a circuit of ME, from being forged in Mt Doom up to the Gladden Fields, the Misty Mts, (OK, a bit of a loop off to the Lonely Mountain)Hobbiton...etc and back to Mt Doom. Obvious, I know, but I'm tired.
If by my life or death I can protect you, I will.
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Thank you!
"the ring making a circuit of ME"
Good one!
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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The palantir: first it belong to the Numenoreans, then it was thought lost...was found by Saruman...Gandalf took it and returned it to the descendent of the Numenoreans: Aragorn...
Maybe not a perfect circle...but still a circle...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing !!!
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...and one I hadn't thought of!
Thanks Eliador
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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Another one could be the return of Galadriel to Valinor...i think..
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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A very good observation, Belladonna, and an interesting topic!
I can’t think of any more plot circles right now (too lazy…), but for anyone who is interested in the symbolism of rings/circles, I hightly recommend the book “Ring of power” by American Jungian psychologist Jean Shinoda Bolen. She explores the symbolic power of rings (mostly based on Wagner’s ring trilogy, the nationalistic elements of which she is quite critical, though, and rightly so). The book starts with a Tolkien quote!
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How about...
Isildur taking the Ring from Sauron and ending the first darkness, becoming corrupted by the ring and as a result causes the diruption of the monarchy, which leads to Aragorn's life of wandering and reluctance to become involved; and then by becoming involved with the quest - with the very thing that caused all of this, the ring - Aragorn becomes key in destroying the forces of darkness and in turn regains the monarchy.
The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
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 by -
Broc
(Fri Mar 21 09:03:19)
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Being extremely simplistic --
The story begins in the bucolic Shire - evolves throughout Middle Earth -- and returns to the destroyed Shire, which culminates in a Renaissance, [thanks to Galadriel's dirt].
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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The story of Aragorn and Arwen forms a circle in their family tree:
Aragorn is a descendent of Elros (Elrond's brother) who chose mortality and became the first Numenorean King.
Aragorn marrying Arwen completes the circle.
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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Wow, great thread! I'll think of something later... feeling too hyper to be serious.
I like your sig line! All hail the Beatles!
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Thanks Eowyn, I look forward to your thoughts!
See you when you've calmed down!
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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i'm not completely sure about this, but i read somewhere that since they both were descedants from maiar/elves/men, they had three children, and each one was of pure race, i mean a pure maiar, a pure elf and a pure man.
I didn't lose my mind it was mine to give away...
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Aragorn and Arwen's children?
Wow... can you remember where you read that?
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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i' ve been looking for the place where i saw that, but i just can't remember, sorry!!!
it didnt sound so right to me because i thought that Aragorn and Arwen had more than 3 children, but im not sure about that either!!
I didn't lose my mind it was mine to give away...
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Lady-Eowyn
(Fri Mar 21 12:55:43)
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 UPDATED Fri Mar 21 12:57:41 |
I studied genetics for almost two months out of a 7-month biology course. Geneticists would laugh at that! That's virutally impossible, unless you allow for technological intervention...
I know that was OT and random, but... well... anyway!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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three yes, but two species maybe not...think about dominant and recessive gens...(i know...this is a  discussition but i've study genetics for some moths in college)...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Yes, but they would have mixed genes (Rr, Mm, and so on). That is not pure Elvish, pure Human, etc.
I have to go for now... but I hope we can continue this later. It makes for a nice review in genetics!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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If Aragorn was half elf (and he could be, being a descendant from elves) and picturing that the man gen was the dominance...it could be possible...
Aragorn: Mn and Arwen: nn
=50% of changes of being human and 50% of changes of being elf (using the mendel method)...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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But he isn't half-Elf at all. Elros chose mortality; he is therefore no longer an Elf. He is now completely Human, though he may have some Elf-like characteristics (lifespan, wisdom, talents, etc). Assuming he marries a Human dame, all of his offspring are 100% organic Human. Aragorn is the first in Elros's line of descendents to marry an Elf; Aragorn is therefore also 100% organic Human.
Arwen herself isn't completely Elven either. Elrond is called Halfelven because (I think... not completely sure) his parents were Beren and Lúthien... or else they were his grandparents. I'm not looking this up right now, but if he is "Halfelven," then they were his parents. Anyway, so he is half-Elven. He marries an Elf, presumably, and Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen are 75% Elf.
Therefore, Aragorn and Arwen's offpsring are, adding the parents' genes, 125% Human and 75% Elven. If we reduce that, their genetic ratio is, Human to Elven, 5:3. They are predominately Human.
Unless, of course, you allow for incomplete dominance... but I'd rather not get into that.
This has been rather fun...! I don't mind at all if you utterly dispute me and show me that I'm completely wrong; this is great review for my final (which is in three months, but oh well).
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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..altought i did think this was fun...
But i realize that i was missing the halfelven part......
...but just a thought before i knew the: all the Aragorn and Arwen childs must be human...i always thought that that would be kind of cool if they had a halfelven child that had some sort of important task to acomplish later after the departure of Legolas...just it would be a interesting story...i think
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Well, I'm sure that, if this were a real case, Arwen's Elven genes would kick in at some point! That'd definitely be one story I'd read. 
Thanks for helping me review!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Actually i was thinking in writing something about it...but maybe only in summer... --not that i could write something like Tolkien or anything...
If it turns out good, maybe you will read it...
I just don't know who to ressurected the nazgul...i'm thinking about this for about two or three months...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Of course I'll read it!
Who resurrected the Nazgûl... they weren't necessarily "resurrected." They were always there; they were just dormant at times. When their master called them, they became active.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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But that's preciselly the point...one of my ideas was: gollum in fact didn't fall into the crack(he find a tunnel or something), there for the ring wasn't destroyed...after many years he feel sorry for all he has done and returns to the Shire where Sam's son (or grandson) now lives in Bag End...
The troops of Morgoth are approaching Middle Earth, he hasn't left the void but he has news allies...
The son of Sam, has pity of Gollum and they go to live in Buckland...he is now the keeper of the ring and Gollum is sort of a good creature...
Then the location of the ring is discovered by one of Morgoth's servants...
I picture a intervention of the istari Radagast (since he is the only one left in ME)...
And then enters the chill of Aragorn (it has to the a "she", cause there are already to many male characters...)...she goes to find the ring...
And so, i need to think a way for the Wraiths to be awaken...
What do you think so far???
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Very creative, that's what I think so far.
The Wraiths can awaken because of the movement of the Ring. Sauron slept, as did the Wraiths, while the Ring was dormant in Gollum's cave. When Bilbo took the Ring, Sauron awoke. So while the Ring is moving from location to location, the Wraiths are awakened.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Yes...but that i missed direction, cause i wanted to write something about the lost wife of Legolas (thought about this last weekend on the bus ):
By the time Sauron hadn't made the one ring and he was living with the noldor, he had a...slip...with a elf maiden: and she had a daughter-> and that's the funny part: half elf/half istari (this must be a powerful creature) and when the maiden knew of Sauron's treachery she killed herself, after giving to her daughter a ring that she had received from Sauron: the black ring...her daughter lived after those events with the sindarin folks of Mirkwood and eventually became Legolas wife, but by the time of the war of the ring, she had to go to the wilderness because of the ring she carried...
After the war ended, Legolas left ME and they didn't see again...and the story goes from here...
Note: i made this up, so it can be in conflict with something that Tolkien has writen...i just like to write and i think this could really be great stories...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Boy, you're just brimming with creativity. Add on to my parody, will you?
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Yes, i know...i will try to contribute...i just don't have any idea right no...unless a bad/good nazgul could come up in the play...
I really love your parody, but i'm participating in TFOJ, and that just kind of ocupates my criativity a lot...
But i will contribute as soon as i find something that i think it will be a good (goofy i mean) thing to ad
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Broc
(Fri Mar 21 16:42:24)
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Entitled, "Son of Sam"
Love it!
Is the Shire in Central Park?
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Very funny
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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One problem Eliador, although that sounds very interesting is that the ring must have been destroyed. Sauron's kingdom crumbled and dissolved instantly for some reason, and it wasn't because Gollum had the ring again.
I can deal with Gollum grabbing a crack on the way down and escaping though, and perhaps finding something else of Sauron's in the tunnel...
If by my life or death I can protect you, I will.
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Yes, i know...it was just a idea i had...well, even before reading the books...i think this explains a lot...
I'll think about something else...but thanks for commeting this
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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Just to clear up your point Eowyn - (the reason why Elrond is called Half-elven).
Elrond is an elf because he chose to be one (at the same time that his brother Elros chose to be mortal - Elros is, however, also called half-elven). His lineage is quite complicated, but I'll try to keep it as simple as possible!
Idril (elf) married Tuor (man)
Their son was Earendil
Earendil Married Elwing (the daughter of Beren and Luthien)
Their sons were Elrond and Elros
Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros were given the choice to become elven or mortal by the Valar, because Earendil was the first (and only? not sure) mortal man to venture to the forbidden shores of Valinor.
Elrond chose to be an elf, and was granted the Grace to pass into the West when he became weary of middle earth. Elrond's children were also allowed to choose whether to pass into the West or to become mortal.
Elros chose to be a man, and became the first king of Numenor.
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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If you want to be really pedantic about it, then different species should not be able to breed at all! (or produce infertile offspring) - but I don't think Tolkien was all that interested in genetics!
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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Of course he wasn't; he was more interested in English and literature!
I was just saying that he should've been more logical... not to argue with the Great Master, but... oh well, this is fun! I loooove debating (not arguing)!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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The structure of the story itself is very cyclic, particularly in FOTR.
The Hobbits encounter hardship and danger on the road to Bree, followed by a moment of respite (no matter how brief) at the Inn of the Prancing Pony.
They again encounter hardship and danger on the way to Rivendell, followed by a more profound respite with the Elves.
Hardship and danger again through the Mines of Moria, followed by respite in Lothlorien.
Through each cycle, the stakes and the sacrifices become greater, as does the profoundness and depth of the Fellowship's moments of rest.
Maybe it's more of a spiral than a circle.
Haven't given much thought to how this pattern carries over into TTT or ROTK.
The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
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Through each cycle, the stakes and the sacrifices become greater, as does the profoundness and depth of the Fellowship's moments of rest.
That's a lovely observation, thanks fleabite
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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I like your mention of the spiralling nature of the story. I've gone into length before on the many transitions that the characters make, and to me it always seemed that they were involved in sort of an upward spiritual spiral, a journey of awakening to higher levels of awareness. There's a discussion about the use of the spiral as symbolism on "The Art of the Rings" web site, which is unfortunately down today. When it's up again, I'll post the url (do you have it on your links post?). This site takes a very Jungian interpretation of the symbolism used in the movie, so I think it will be very interesting reading to other posters here.
The circle is also, of course, the symbol of perfection. It is smooth and it conjoins without a border. It represents cohesion, consistency, something unchanging and complete. How then, is it that a RING is the symbol of evil in ME? The reason why this comes to mind, fleabite, is that the spiral is an open-ended circle. Does this imply that perfection is best symbolized by something unending and open to change, than by something closed? Is the symbol of perfection a symbol of an undesirable kind of perfection? Just curious...
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Does this imply that perfection is best symbolized by something unending and open to change, than by something closed?
Sounds like we're getting back to your "Would you choose Perfection" thread, athene!
It's a very interesting thought - is perfection as symbolised by the Ring (or rings) of power, one that is ultimately doomed? Is the idea of perfection as an ever-changing thing (as seemed to be the conclusion of most posters on your thread) the ideal we should be striving for?
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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A great thread that I hope to get back to when I have more time. I enjoyed reading all of the posts!
"Well we all shine on..."
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| by -
Broc
(Fri Mar 21 16:45:47)
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The Ring really isn't a Ring --
Think of the dualism, expressed in above posts about the Aragorn=Arwen genetics stuff, and the symbol of unities, etc...
The True Ring is a Double Helix...
Think of the Eternal Consequences!
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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The True Ring is a Double Helix...
Broc, I'm intrigued!
Please explain!
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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I think he is reffering to the structure of DNA: A double helix...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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I know that! (I'm a biologist)
I was wondering what Broc meant by his remark, that's all! 
I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love
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Oh, sorry
He must have read that coment of mine and Eowyn about mendel and he's took the conclusion that DNA could really decide the course of history...i think that was what crossed his mind...and forgive me for try to answer for him, but this is just my opinion...
"... Anyway you need people of intelligence in this sort of...mission...quest...thing!!!
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What a wonderful thread. I was away when it started and nearly missed it (the board has gotten cluttered).
One thing I like is that Tolkien includes several different versions of The Road Goes Ever On and On, forming a progression and possibly circling around, though I am too tired to look it up now in order to see whether it really circles or just sort of meanders.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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