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Elentari_V
(Mon Feb 3 08:54:48)
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 UPDATED Mon Feb 3 10:05:46 |
Another one inspired by this weekend's viewing of the EE. If this has been covered before I sincerely apologize and ask that some kind soul point me in the direction of that thread.
At the moment of Gandalf's fall in Moria, and in the following moments when the remainder of the Fellowship are mourning his loss, who feels most responsible for what happened?
Gimli: None of the rest of the Fellowship would have suggested to go through Moria. Frodo would not have even known this was an option. Does Gimli believe it is his fault that Gandalf was lost? Does the memory of Gandalf's words, "I would not take that path..." haunt him? Consider the anguish on his face as Boromir tries to comfort him. Dwarves do not lightly let others see their emotions, yet he cannot hide what he feels at the loss of Gandalf, even though they did not know each other well before the quest.
Pippin: They had traveled through the mines for three days without alerting the orcs to their presence. Does Pippin believe that if he had not caused the dwarf skeleton to fall into the well that they would have continued to escape all notice and Gandalf would have emerged with them? How do Gandalf's last words to him "Fool of a Took..." affect his innocent hobbit conscious until meeting with the White Wizard? Remember the thousand-yard stare on his face as he lays helpless on the ground, completely consumed by his grief.
Frodo: The Ringbearer made the decision to go through the mines. With the possible exception of Aragorn, Frodo is closest to Gandalf. He feels the loss more strongly than the rest. Does he also feel the most guilt? Is this the beginning of his inner turmoil that all who are near him are doomed? Does he believe after this, that no choice he makes will be the right one, and that someone will suffer because of it?
Of course this is not to say that any of these three should feel guilty. Gandalf's seeming sacrifice was of his own free will. Still I wonder if I were part of the fellowship, especially if I were one of these three, how I would carry the burden of these memories and what I would feel. I cannot decide which one suffers the most over his part in Gandalf's fall. I look forward to hearing your choices and why.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Shakra
(Mon Feb 3 09:02:25)
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Interesting question, Elentari. To be honest, I hadn't given it much thought. Strangely, that aspect doesn't seem to have been brought up in the movie. In the books, it isn't Gandalf that protest going into the Mines of Moria, but Aragorn.
IMO, the pain of the Fellowship seemed to stem more from the loss of a good friend and maybe even the fear of having to go on without him. My other thought is most all of them would feel some guilt as they were unable to protect Gandalf.
Hope this opens a good discussion. We need one around here.
Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. (Samwise)
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You're right about the book, but I thought I would try to stick to the movie since several people on the board haven't read it. It's interesting that you would say they would feel guilt for not being able to protect Gandalf. I always thought they expected the wizard to protect them. Or maybe just the hobbits felt that way.
Thanks, that's what I was hoping to do. 
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I guess they all feel guilty, it's a natural human/dwarf/hobbit reaction to ask the 'if only' question in such circumstances, Frodo probably has least cause to do so, they had to go some direction and he could not have known what lay in Moria whereas there were good arguments against Carhadras and the gap of Rohan.
Also I seem to remember from the book that it was actually Gandalf who suggested Moria and Aragorn, who had also passed through before argued against it, being especially worried for Gandalf should he enter, they both knew what lay within, and Gandalf choose to go anyhow.
Im afraaid I can find no mitigation for Pippin, he was indeed, in this instance, 'a fool of a Took.'
Handses?...Knife?...String or nothing!!
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You're right about the book and Aragorn's protests, but I was trying to stay with the film since some here haven't read the books yet.
Sadly, you're also right about Pip. But I feel so sorry for the little guy.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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You know the meaning of my name! Not many do.
I definitely see your point about Aragorn. Since Gandalf has now placed him in charge of the Fellowship he must carry the responsiblity of their safety and the choices of their path.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Uinen
(Tue Feb 4 13:53:38)
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Wow, creepy. I was reading through the end of the Silmarillion today (haven't read the whole thing, just finished the preface and some of the beginning part) where it talks about the meaning of names in Middle Earth. I saw Elentari, and I was like "Hey, there's a poster on IMBd boards with that name!" I was trying to see if I could come up with a good name for myself...and I came up with "Dalwing"...it means "foot spray".
 "And you have my bow..."
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Uinen
(Tue Feb 4 14:06:20)
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Hmmm...how about Tin-Sereg? Sparkley Blood.
"And you have my bow..."
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Uinen
(Tue Feb 4 15:22:22)
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HA! That's a great one. Let me try to figure out another...Mel-luinear. Love Blue Sea. How's that one? Still is a lot like Caribbean. LOL.
"And you have my bow..."
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I always feel for Pippin especially. (I'm talking about the film here, less so the book).
The scene after they come out into the light and he is lying across Merry in a completely collapsed state of grief and remorse gets me every time.
Remember that the hobbits relied on Gandalf as their touchstone more than anyone else ~ and also that they have less experience with losing comrades in battle than the other members of the Fellowship.
Plus ~ Pippin clearly has so much love for Gandalf (and vice versa) and yet the last thing Gandalf said to him was in the heat of anger... made worse by the fact that Pip knows he deserved that anger.
I definitely think Pippin is feeling the worst.
 mindlessmunkey
{and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.}
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I like the way you refer to Gandalf as the Hobbits' touchstone. I haven't heard him described in that way but it's a perfect fit.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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It's funny that everyone is mentioning Gimli, because it hadn't occurred to me at all. I was always thinking about Frodo, especially after seeing the ee dvd. Legolas says "We went needlessly into the net of Moria," and Celeborn passes the decision off on Gandalf, but I'm always thinking "Yeah, nice move Frodo."
Oddly enough, Pippin hadn't occurred to me either (I have obviously been distracted by a certain elf), until I saw Billy Boyd interviewed and he mentioned it. And I thought "Oh my god, of course!" So it was definately something that the actor was trying to get across, that Pippin felt responsible for the fall. And it was a double-whammy, too: a) waking the watcher that got them stuck in there in the first place, and b) causing the crash. As far as Gimli and Frodo go, they had been doing just fine up until that point (as far as going unnoticed goes), and if they had continued to be quiet, it's very possible that Moria would have wound up being the safest and least eventful path. So I definately have to go with Pippin on this. It made his mourning scene so much more poignant (not that it wasn't already heartbreaking).
Thanks for the great post! I wish I could think up things like these. We need more posts like this.
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You're right! I had completely left the waking of the Watcher out of the equation. Again I say, Poor Pip!
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Interesting question. For the following reason:
In the movie, Gimli is anxious to see Balin and Moria, and certain that Moria is safe; and the decision about what to do is left up to the ringbearer, Frodo, after Caradhras defeats the fellowship.
However, I just got through the mines of Moria in the book. Neither of these things is true in the book. First, Gimli knows that no one has heard from Balin in 30 yrs., and suspects something is wrong. Second, it's Gandalf who thinks going through Moria is the best idea, and Aragorn disagrees strongly. So they try Caradhras first, then Aragorn gives his blessing to Gandalf's wish, with reservations. Frodo has no say in the matter, other than that someone asks his opinion and he just agrees with them.
So, in that sense, neither of those two need to feel any guilt, according to the book.
Pippin does do something a little stupid in the book, but even Gandalf doesn't really blame him, but blames himself more. Which is also different from the movie, where Pippin has been specifically warned not to make any noise.
Anyway, I was wondering why they felt it a good dramatic device to change these minor plot details? Probably because it adds the levels of guilt you are speaking of, and that makes it more emotionally dramatic.
"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
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As I said, I was sticking to the film version to allow readers and non-readers to participate in the discussion, but you're absolutely right about what happened in the book. I also think you've nailed PJ's reasoning for the script changes on the nose.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I think this is in both the EE and the TR (I only saw the TR 3 times, so I couldn't be sure), but when the Fellowship is explaining what happened to Celeborn, there is a shot of Gimli where he appears to be conveying deep feelings of guilt (it's hard to tell with Dwarves). I think this is when Celeborn expresses disbelief at their decision to pass through Moria.
-Gimlet
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Point taken. 
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I think Gimli probably feels the guiltiest for the longest based on the scene that introduces Celeborn and Galadriel in the movie. But I always feel sorry for Pippin. Crying with Merry.  You gotta love the hobbits! I've got a soft spot for all four of them. I'm reading the books now(just at the scouring) I always would call up my friends when Gandalf bashed Pippin(alot more in the book!) and say 'Poor Pippin!' They just laughed and asked what happened now. I got to the escape from the Orcs in TTT and called a friend who'd just read it and asked her if Gandalf was nicer to Pip after this. I was so upset when she said no! 'But he did so good!' I said. 'Yeah...he's gonna screw up again,'she replied. Poor Pippin!
I fear not the shadows of Men
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I don't think Gimli is feeling any more guilty in the scene w/Celeborn & Galadriel than any of the others. He is feeling the discomfort of being a dwarf in Lothlorien on top of the guilt all 8 feel, not unlike Boromir's feelings of discomfort there. Gimli choice was no worse than any other's left to them: to remain in the open & come close to Isengard where they would be set upon by 1000s of Uruks. In retrospect, as the film tells it, they are lucky the Balrog showed up b/c they were definately cornered even if it does cost them dearly. Gimli's choice was made of necesity. Pippin is the true "Fool of a Took" of course, but remember Gandalf's greatest strength is his ability to sympathisize w/the lesser inhabitants of ME & forgive. Tolkien's & Jackson's Gandalfs are willing, if not also a little uneasy, martyrs; which seems very in tune w/Tolkien's Catholicism.
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Pehaps it's just how I read that scene in the EE, I felt that while the others were sad and troubled, Gimli(though not rightly) seems to feel a bit guilty after Legolas says they went to Moria needlessly. And Galadriel turns to comfort him quickly telling him the truth...that Gandalf knew what he was doing, even if they don't understand yet. Moria was necessary and the loss of Gandalf was necessary at that time. But as the thread goes...I imagine some feel guilty, others sad at the loss, despair.
I always feel the need to defend Pippin (and Sam for that matter) he's just this little naive happy hobbit at the start who always gets yelled at...by the time he stops getting yelled at(on the way to Gondor) he's away from Merry and sad. See, there I go again...poor Pip! 
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Never thought of the appearance of the Balrog as lucky, but you are absolutely right. They never would have made it out of there without the demon scaring away the goblins.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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BB-15
(Tue Feb 4 13:55:37)
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Hi - Elentari: great thread; for IMHO it gets to the heart of one of the great questions of Tolkien's myth about fate and personal responsibility. The pivotal event of FOTR is the fall of Gandalf.The film writers have done a great job in destributing the cause and this is classic Tolkien. So, another version of your question is to ask ; who is responsible for Gandalf's fall?
Gandalf; We can say Gandalf knew what he was doing. But he was ordered by the Valar to help the peoples of Middle Earth. We could say he was just doing his job in follow the Fellowship into Moria.
In the movie and the book several people make decisions that lead to the journey into Moria. I won't repeat what has been said here but in the book it is Gimli who decides for the group to come down off of the mountain Carahdras.
What about the Balrog? We could say it is none of the Fellowship's fault but due to the Balrog. But then again the Balrog saves the Fellowship from the Orcs.
What about Melkor/Morgoth? Wasn't he behind all of this evil business? But it was only by free will that Sauron and the Balrogs became his servants. The Numenor by free will fell under Sauron's spell in Numenor. Saruman also freely chooses to join Saruon and therefore blocks the Fellowship from going by Isengard. So all of them share the blame.
What about Illuvatar/God? Didn't she/he create Melkor in the Music at the beginning. But Illuvatar gave Melkor free will also. And Melkor freely chose to hate and destroy.
There is string of freely chosen actions through thousands of years that ends up with Gandalf taking that fall. But it is equally true that many actions affected these decisions and the actions of Illuvatar, the Valar and Maiar certainly influenced what happened in Moria.
Interesting stuff and something I keep in mind when I read Tolkien or see the movies. Have a good one, BB ;-)
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...for your insightful post. Until this point I have kept the characters and events of the Silmarillion seperate in my mind from those of LOTR except in the most tenious of connections. By exploring the deep history of Gandalf and the Balrog, and their creators, you've opened my eyes to the huge mistake I was making by not adding ME's history to LOTR. I suppose it's because there is no mention of the Valar in the trilogy or the Hobbit. It's almost as though the Valar have been forgotten by the peoples of ME. I feel so silly! If we cannot be seperated from our own history, then surely we cannot do the same to these characters. Thank you BB!!
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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BB-15
(Tue Feb 4 23:14:55)
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Hi Elentari; You bring up another interesting point. What happened to the memory of the Valar in the 3rd Age? The movies handle this in an interesting way. In the EE, the Prologue at first was written by Boyens and it had lots of names including some from the Silmarillion. But in the final version, obviously a lot of this information was taken out.
The Prologue has the right tone IMHO about the religion and Genesis of Middle Earth. It is as you say;
"It's almost as though the Valar have been forgotten by the peoples of ME."
The hints of some great lost history gives a wonderful depth to the LOTR and the movie's story of mysterious events long lost.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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You make an interesting argument there. The ring is not the only thing Galadriel is referring to when she says, "Some things that should not be forgotten..." Still, if it were possible to question Tolkien today, I would wonder why the Elves and Istari did not speak of the Valar, Galadriel particularly. Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't she the only living being of the peoples of ME to have actually lived in the presence of the Valar? (I'm not including the Istari, as they are Maia in disguise.}
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Aule
(Wed Feb 5 07:09:50)
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Cirdan lived in the presence of some of the Valar. He would have travelled with Orome, on the journey from Cuivienen to Beleriand, and it was Osse who pursuaded him to stay in Beleriand rather than travelling the Aman.
Glorfindel lived for a time amongst the Valar as well. After he died in the First Age, he spent some time in the Halls of Mandos, and then was re-embodied, and eventually sent back to Middle Earth.
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Thank you for reminding me of Cirdan.
I'm sure you have seen the many debates concerning the two Glorfindels. On the one hand, we have those who believe he was given another body with all of his previous memories intact. The question then becomes, why was he the only one to be given this second chance? Why not Gil-galad, or Turgon, or Thingol?
On the other hand, we have those who believe that the Glorfindel of LOTR was a different elf who was named in honor of the first Glorfindel. Now we have the question of "why were no other elves named for their ancestors or heroes of their race"?
It is a topic that has been hotly argued for many, many years by Tolkienites. I take it you are of the first opinion?
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Aule
(Wed Feb 5 07:41:49)
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Tolkien himself, said that Glorfindel was re-embodied and sent back. This was in his notes, as published by Christopher Tolkien in the Peoples of Middle Earth.
Tolkien had originally forgot about the other Glorfindel, but the LOTR Glorfindel was clearly intended to be an experienced elf lord, probably of royal lineage, and a warrior of surpassing skill. Sounds pretty much like the one that died.
Other elves are re-embodied as well, but Glorfindel is the only one to be sent back to Middle Earth. Perhaps he wished to go back, while the others didn't. He did save Earendil from the Balrog. Perhaps he wanted to come back and look after Earendil's descendants. Finish the job, so to speak.
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Elentari_V
(Wed Feb 5 08:08:16)
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| UPDATED Wed Feb 5 14:19:57 |
I have not read any of the histories by Christopher Tolkien but I do plan to someday. You have an excellent theory for Glorfindel's reasons to return to ME.
I wonder how the release of Tolkien's notes by his son, years after his works have been so thoroughly studied and debated, have been received by scholars. Do they feel that Christopher should have just let the works stand for themselves? After all, imagine if descendants of all great authors released their notes. Would that imply that the published works are not the definitive word on these subjects? Or are we supposed to accept the notes merely as an appendice of sorts and continue to view the original works as seperate and complete?
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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BB-15
(Wed Feb 5 13:47:18)
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Hi Elentari; Aule, one of our amateur Tolkien scholars on these Boards, has answered the Glorfindel question. But you are going deeper and maybe I can point you into some helpful directions.
Reimbodiment of Elves; This concept is explained in detail in Morgoth's Ring.
"I wonder how the release of Tolkien's notes by his son, years after his works have been so thoroughly studied and debated, have been received by scholars. Do they feel that Christopher should have just let the works stand for themselves?"
At first I read some comments on the internet in which some LOTR fans claimed that only LOTR was official and that even the Silmarillion and The Hobbit could not be trusted for reliable information. This limited point of view has pretty much been rejected by the Tolkien community whether by scholars or fans. Every idea about Tokien's world from JRR even if it is contradictory is now being evaluated on its own terms. Previously unpublished works are basically categorized as early preliminary works, i.e., The Lost Tales or late works with a different view point, i.e., The Unfinished Tales or Morgoth's Ring. All of these works have value in shedding light on Tolkien's conceptions. And even if they are contradictory some of them can be seen as presenting the same material from a different point of view.
Christopher Tolkien IMHO has been universally acclaimed as providing a great service to modern mythological literature by compiling the huge amount of material in JRR Tolkien's unpublished works.
As to the question of whether the unpublished material was overly edited by Christopher, this topic is discussed by him in the many notes in each volume. This specific topic of how far the editing should have gone is specifically addressed in The War of the Jewels. To summarize, Christopher now believes that the published Silmarillion had, in a few minor places, story gaps filled by the editor, Guy Kay, that should have been left as gaps. Christopher gives an account of each example. Frankly, I believe there was hardly any damage done. The published Silmarillion is JRR Tolkien's story except for a few added sentences (about the fate of Hurin for instance) which JRR probably would have agreed with anyway.
"After all, imagine if descendants of all great authors released their notes. Would that imply that the published works are not the definitive word on these subjects? Or are we supposed to accept the notes merely as an appendice of sorts and continue to view the original works as seperate and complete?"
For any other author I belive you would have a good point but not with JRR Tolkien. His conception was so vast and complex that every bit of information about his mythical world has only enhanced the brilliance of his previously published works IMHO. For Tolkien's goal was not to create one tight, polished novel. No his vision was of a mythical, literary tradition, in a sense long lost but in another way new and fresh. All the great myths are in a tradition that contains many works. Now Tolkien's myth has that feel of a broad library of knowledge, the value of which is evaluated by the quality and importance of each work.
I've enjoyed the exchange. Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Thank you for the explanation of Christopher's feelings on the issue. Looking at the situation in that light, I would imagine one could compare it to a sort of archealogical dig of ME. In other words, each new clue gives us a greater understanding of Tolkien's world, even if some of the evidence contradicts what we previously believed. I now look forward to exploring the Histories. Do you know how many volumes have now been published?
I, too, have enjoyed our 'conversation'.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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BB-15
(Thu Feb 6 10:52:41)
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Hi again Elentari;
"Looking at the situation in that light, I would imagine one could compare it to a sort of archealogical dig of ME."
Great metaphor. You might be interested in the origin of this idea. In the 1800's it was believed by some linguistic scholars that a piece of ancient literature, the Aeneid or the Bible for instance, could be analyzed to separate more ancient portions from new phrases. Modern Biblical criticism is still partially based on this technique. Tolkien seems to have been attracted to this method by which he at first believed that a myth such as Beowulf, written by a Christian, could be analyzed to separate the more ancient portions. (Tolkien was one of the great Beowulf scholars.) This idea was that a scholar could discover a more ancient myth by reviewing the text.
One of Tolkien's original ideas with his myth in the early 1900's was to "discover" a myth for England using the method described above with northern European mythology. This attempt ran into several problems primarily being that England is a nation of immigrants even before the Roman occupation. Waves of invasions have occured on the island and so what started as an English myth became a European myth and in many ways a universal myth for human kind. But Tolkien kept the original idea that he was discovering texts that were not written by him but only transmitted by him from ancient writers. So, your archealogical dig metaphor is IMHO a correct way to approach this collection of writings.
"I now look forward to exploring the Histories. Do you know how many volumes have now been published?"
The unpublished writings are an amazing collection. There is the Unfinished Tales and then the 12 volume History of Middle Earth series. I recommend starting with the Unfinished Tales and then going to volume 10 of THOME, Morgoth's Ring. Those books open the world of the Silmarillion on several levels by first expanding some stories in greater detail and by exploring concepts behind the myth.
As for a follow up on the biography by Carpenter, I recommend; JRR Tolkien, Author of the Century by Tom Shippey. This is the best scholarly work about Tolkien so far IMHO.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I was aware of the research into the origins of Vergil's epic and the Bible, but I did not know that this technique inspired Tolkien to do the same with Beowulf. Very interesting. BB, you remind me of some of my favorite teachers/professors.
Thank you for the recommendations. I have added them to my reading list. It seems to grow longer nearly every day I peruse this board. One question though, why is the book called Morgoth's ring? I clearly recall where Morgoth put the 'you-know-whats' and it wasn't a ring.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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BB-15
(Fri Feb 7 13:48:19)
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Hi again Elentari; You write some great questions;
"why is the book called Morgoth's ring? I clearly recall where Morgoth put the 'you-know-whats' and it wasn't a ring."
In one of the essays in the book, Tolkien compares Melkor/Morgoth with Sauron. (I don't have it in front of me so this is off the top of my head.) In essence while Sauron created the One Ring to dominate the other great Rings and so he hoped Middle Earth, Melkor participated in the creation of Middle Earth itself. Then Melkor fought the other Valar (threw down the lamps) and the Valar abandoned Middle Earth. Melkor then began to poison and twist the creation of Yavanna, the plants and animals.
Now the Valar thought that by escaping to Valinor that they could preserve some place from Melkor's influence. That is why they brought the Elves there even though they didn't save all the Elves from Melkor. Yet the Valar were mistaken. In Valinor the mother of Feanor, Miriel, choses to have her spirit leave her body, essentially die, in a place where death was thought to be impossible. This leads the Valar to realize that the contamination of Melkor was more widespread than they at first realized.
In summary, Sauron poured his evil into a Ring. Melkor poured his evil into the entire world and even influenced the world beyond. In essence Middle Earth is Morgoth's Ring. All of this has implications on Tolkien's speculations about the origin and power of evil and why bad things happen to good people.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Now I am truly intrigued! I may be moving this volume ahead of the other entries on my reading list. I usually try to read books in the order they were recommended, or piqued my interest. For this one, though, I think I will break my own rule. Thanks very much BB!!!!
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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If that is the same Glorfindel, why not give new life to the Teleri killed in the Kinslaying?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Aule
(Wed Feb 5 20:48:24)
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Who said they didn't? Glorfindel was just the only one that they sent back to Middle Earth.
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Still a toss-up for me. I think if they did that, so momentous an occasion...wouldn't Tolkien mention it? I knew Glorfindel (3rd Age) was a great Elf lord, but never saw him as a rebirth. Is there just that one obscure reference, or do we have more info?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Aule
(Wed Feb 5 21:41:44)
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Tolkien did mention that fallen elves reside in the Halls of Mandos for a time, and are re-embodied, when they're ready. Athene has an entire thread discussing this.
As for Glorfindel, we have Tolkien himself saying that he was the same Glorfindel that died battling the Balrog just outside of Gondolin, in the First Age. That's good enough for me. I can't believe there's a debate about this when it is clearly explained by the author. He was vague about when and how he came back, but suggested that he might have come back to Middle Earth with Gandalf, or possibly one of the other Istari.
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My question is in that I had not even heard such a quote existed until it showed up here. I am not doubting it exists...I just want to know more.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Interesting point. Definitely Frodo, and I knew it on my first viewing, when he was standing on the shore at the end of the first movie. I never thought about Gimli or Pippin, since Frodo was the one who wanted to go through the mines, to which Gandalf replied, "So be it" and I the audience knows right there that something will go wrong in Moria.
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BB-15
(Thu Feb 6 10:57:47)
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"I can't believe there's a debate about this when it is clearly explained by the author."
You know Aule that's how it is with Tolkien. Someone can always find a different viewpoint about the myth. The thing about this topic is that rebirth is explained in Morgoth's Ring and most people haven't read that book.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Aule
(Thu Feb 6 11:04:35)
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Exactly, I mean I can accept different interpretations of things on all sorts of levels, but when the author says Glorfindel in Rivendell is the re-embodied Glorfindel of Gondolin, then I don't think there's any room for doubt.
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Was the Glorfindel of Fellowship the re-embodiment of the Glorfindel of the First Age, or was he another with the same name?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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BB-15
(Fri Feb 7 11:22:45)
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Hi thebigv13;
"Was the Glorfindel of Fellowship the re-embodiment of the Glorfindel of the First Age, or was he another with the same name?"
This issues is discussed in the following website (Welcome to the hypertextualized Tolkien FAQ) which goes through the the research necessary to answer this question.
http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~bouvin/tolkien/sameglorfindel.html
As stated in the article by Robert Rosenbaum based primarily on The Return of the Shadow (HoMe VI);
"The strongest objection is that the way Christopher presents this inspires less confidence than it might because he doesn't provide any direct quotes -- rather, he merely describes a "conclusion" that his father eventually "came to". Evidently, Tolkien never actually wrote his conclusion down. The matter therefore reduces to a question of how much one trusts Christopher, and whether one supposes that he might attach too much importance to a casual statement. The majority of readers appear to accept that this was indeed a thoughtful conclusion that Tolkien reached only after long deliberation (we do know that he and Christopher discussed the matter of Middle-earth often). A significant minority continue to reject it."
As to how an elf could die and return to physical form in Middle Earth, this is explained in Morgoth's Ring, volume 10, History of Middle Earth.
TO SUM IT UP; As with most questions about Tolkien, there are those who reject certain writings or statements as correct because they believe certain passages or statements by JRR or Christopher were temporary views and not meant to be official. This seems to be the case here. I believe that the two Glorfindels are the same Elf but I still respect the minority that do not. This adds interest to discussions and spurs people on to read more Tolkien, which IMHO is not a bad thing.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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Thank you. Great link.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Uinen
(Wed Feb 5 13:55:14)
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Can some one please tell me what IMHO is?
"And you have my bow..."
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"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
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Uinen
(Wed Feb 5 14:10:24)
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"And you have my bow..."
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 I thought I was the only 'softie' on the board.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Nope...you've seen my soft side. Ai for the Hobbits!
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Aule
(Mon Feb 3 22:19:12)
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It crossed my mind about both Gimli and Frodo. Gimli suggested it - Frodo decided. I think both bear the brunt. But, then again, Gandalf knew what he was getting himself into.
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Aule responded to one of my posts. I'm honored. 
So you don't count Pippin into the equation at all?
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Aule
(Tue Feb 4 14:22:56)
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Yes, I suppose that Pippin's making noise and alerting the Orcs and the Balrog to their presence is pretty guilt inspiring, isn't it? I forgot about that. They might have escaped without harm if not for that.
By the way, I always read your posts, when I see them.
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Yes, and even though Gandalf was often harsh when speaking to Pippin it's obvious there is a great love between them. I cannot imagine the guilt I would feel were I in his shoes, er, feet.
Thank you, I'm truly flattered. I always read your posts as well. You are one of the most philosophical and well-spoken posters on these boards. I often don't respond to your posts though, because by the time I see them others have already expressed an opinion I share.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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The first thing that occurred to me, the first time I saw FOTR, was that Pippin was the one racked by guilt as they emerge from Moria into the light. The expression on his face says it all...
I always thought that Frodo was not feeling guilt, but utter hopelessness. Frodo has always looked to Gandalf for help, support and advice. Without Gandalf, I think Frodo now feels much more isolated and, maybe for the first time, he begins to realise the sheer weight of what he has to do. Frodo had always assumed that Gandalf would be with him to the end no matter what, and I see this moment as Frodo's first inkling that he will have to complete his task alone.
"Life... loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it"
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And perhaps he has come to realize that as powerful as he thought Gandalf was, there may be evil forces even more powerful. That had to be a terrifying moment for him.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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From the way things turned out in the movie, Frodo seems to be the one who feels the most guilt. Afterall, Gimli simply suggested going through the Mines of Moria, but Frodo was the one who was asked to make the final call. And Pippin slipped up because they went to the Mines of Moria after Frodo's decision.
Moreover, his decision about the path meant taking into his resposibility the Fellowship's fate. Gandalf's death made him feel that he failed to this responsibility, thus filling him with even more guilt.
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! 
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Well said Beregond. I'm in complete agreement with your assessment; none of the resulting events would have to come to pass had Frodo not made the decision to direct the fellowship through Moria. We see the despair and grief of the fellowship as they deal with the loss of Gandalf. Some stricken with guilt for their part in the events. Although, it is the final shot in this scene that is the most profound and telling. Frodo having walked off into the distance is called to by Aragorn. As he slowly turns, the enormity of the loss is shown in Frodo's eyes. As his eyes begin to well, a single tear tracks down his cheek. In addition to the tremendous burden of the ring, Fodo is wracked with guilt over his ill-fated decision to travel through the mines. Such a profound scene, beautifully displayed.
Deep is the abyss spanned by Durin's bridge, and none has measured it
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Yeah, I agree, TU, this scene says it all about Frodo's feelings for everybody and everything: for Gandalf, about the quest, about his own part in it. This is my favorite Frodo scene from both films.
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
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Mine too. So much was said with his eyes. Incredible scene.
Deep is the abyss spanned by Durin's bridge, and none has measured it
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Broc
(Tue Feb 4 12:56:12)
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| UPDATED Tue Feb 4 12:56:47 |
This has been a good thread to read, with somany good posts.
Of the fellowship, only Aragorn would KNOW that Gandalf were Maia and therefore, unable to "die" in the mortal sense. But, he wouldn't have any way to know what happens at the "death" of a wizard. Tolkien gives no hint what Aragorn may have said to other members of the fellowship.
Aragorn's feelings would be highly conflicted.
We have to wonder about script not written at Lothlorien. Galadriel would have understood the "Gandalf death" dilemma more than Aragorn -- what private counsel might she have given him?
Another way to approach this question of guilt is the foreshadowing, within the book and the film, about Gandalf entering Moria. The film is actually more enlightening, although misleading, as Saruman wonders, even a bit empathetically, "Then, you [Gandalf] have chosen death!"
This PJ interpolation is, of course, to set us up a bit more.
But, I remember my first reading of the text 35 years ago... I was stunned to find Gandalf so very suddenly, unexpectedly, lost. It was at this moment that I came to understand that this wouldn't be some There-and-Back-Again quest story.
~ Broc
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I also was stunned when I read it for the first time many years ago. After reading The Hobbit, I thought nothing could harm Gandalf. I thought wizards were the ultimate power in ME. (This was of course before my first attempt at the Silmarrilion.)
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I'm still not sure the total 'blame' is Frodo's, but I completely agree with you about the beauty of that scene.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Elentari_V
(Tue Feb 4 13:27:15)
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| UPDATED Tue Feb 4 13:45:26 |
Are you saying that until this happened Frodo had not realized that the fate of the Fellowship was his responsiblity? It's possible, being a sheltered innocent hobbit, that he was depending on the wisdom and strength of Aragorn and Gandalf to see the group through all difficulties.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Frodo acknowledged as much when he accepted the task of being ring bearer; "I will take the it. But I do not know the way." It seemed to me that each part of the fellowship played a vital role for it's survival and it's ultimate success, or failure. Was it not galadriel who said: stray but a little and it will fail.
Deep is the abyss spanned by Durin's bridge, and none has measured it
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A very good point. However, at the time Frodo volunteered to take the ring I believe he only had the vaguest notion of how bad things could become. After Gandalf and Aragorn joined the quest, he had to feel that he would be safe now. These were the strongest and wisest people he knew. He believed that they would shoulder most of the responsiblity and that he, Frodo, had to only carry the ring. I think he never truly realized how high the stakes were until Gandalf's loss. Mordor was just a bad place to him. Perhaps he only thought of it on the same scale as the Old Forest or the Barrow-downs. At worst, he probably thought Sauron was an evil no greater than Bilbo's Smaug. Hearing 'scary tales of old' could not have prepared him for the pain and suffering that would come. He must have been terribly shocked and dismayed! IMHO
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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True and also a good point. I can't help remembering when we're first introduced to Frodo as he is sitting under a tree by the roadside, reading a book. I always though he was the picture of serenity, almost like a child of nature; untouched and not burdened with any of the troubles of middle earth. Except maybe for bringing up a few bottles of the "old winyard" from the cellar for Frodo. Noble was his quest, but I agree that his knowledge of the wider world was limited to uncle Bilbo's tales.
Deep is the abyss spanned by Durin's bridge, and none has measured it
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There's another telling moment slightly later (in the EE only) where the fellowship is waiting to be allowed into Lothlorien.
As Aragorn argues with Haldir, Frodo looks around at each member of the fellowship in turn, and seems extremely uneasy. Is he wondering whether everyone else blames him for Gandalf's fall? Or do you think that he is now (without Gandalf to guide and protect him) asking himself whether he can really trust the rest of the fellowship?
It's interesting then that it is Boromir who seeks to comfort Frodo, to reassure him that he was not to blame for Gandalf's death.
"Life... loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it"
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An interesting interpretation of that scene. I always felt that Frodo was having a premonition of what Galadriel says to him, "Ringbearer, you bring great evil here". Even though we are to assume that Haldir doesn't want to let anyone but Legolas and Aragorn into the Wood, perhaps Frodo is feeling that it is him particularly that the Elves are reluctant to let pass. Frodo knew a bit about Elves from Bilbo, and the few meetings with them in the Shire, so he would expect them to be very perceptive about his burden, even if they knew not what it was.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I love that scene. I'm so glad it was added back in...I would've been waiting for it based on the mirror. Maybe Frodo was wondering how many of the others would be killed trying to help him with his quest. He's close to many of them. I'd never been able to come up with a reason for this scene before this thread. Put on a way of thinking I guess. But I love the way each member of the fellowship looks towards Frodo and then away. It also showed Boromir's good side more clearly and I enjoyed that too. I'm glad they made him the comforter in this scene. It gives me more to like him for besides saving Merry and Pippin.
I fear not the shadows of Men
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sinaes
(Wed Feb 5 22:45:47)
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Frodo feels most responsible as he was the one that Gandalf asked as to what path they should take.
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Why is changed so that it is Gandalf who does not go through the mines in the movie? I can't see it adding anything to the movie, it just seems to me that in the book it tells you that even the wisest can make mistakes.
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I think that Gimli does feel pangs of guilt for suggesting Moria.
Legolas seems to feel that guilt is deserved as evidenced by his comment (in EE) about going needlessly into the net of Moria. (Although, it think in the book that line went to Celeborn - but we are talking the movie here!)
I also agree that Pippin is just crushed with guilt for being so clumsy. I wonder if he deserve all that guilt. The orcs may not have attacked if he had not knocked the skeleton (armor, bucket and all) down the well, but what about the Balrog? Would it have sensed them and attacked anyway?
I think Aragorn also feels a sense of guilt for not having the skill/power to defeat the Balrog himself, thus keeping Gandalf out of harms way. He was already feeling unsure about his ability to resist the ring and become king. It definately will not look good on his resume to note that a wizard died on his watch. He faces down this guilt by making sure the rest of the Fellowship does not fall prey to the orcs. It seems cruel not to "give them a moment, for pity's sake", but he is right to get them moving again.
But Frodo's pain seems to encompass more than just the loss of Gandalf. He also realizes that the same fate could befall all of his comrades. It seemed that when Aragorn called after him on the rocks, Frodo was on the verge of leaving - just continuing on without the rest of the Fellowship. When he turned to face Aragorn, he had a look that conveyed guilt mixed with hopelessness, as if for the first time in his life he felt small and helpless.
Until this point I do not think he realized the consequences involved in this quest. Someone else mentioned that he imagined this would be similar to Bilbo's stories of Smaug. I would agree. Once Gandalf falls, I imagine that he feels if only he were stronger and wiser he could do this task on his own, without putting others at risk.
That was probably longer that it needed to be. But it is a great topic. Thanks, Elentari!
 Gigi
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I always thought of Frodo as a young soldier going to war, but totally unprepared of what he’s really facing. Frodo, like a young soldier going of to war, is expecting high adventure, travel to exotic places and meeting interesting people. Frodo’s view of the outside world is further distorted by Bilbo’s fantastic tales.
But instead, your friends around you are dying, the conditions are hellish and the enemy is relentless. The characters guilt and sense off loss is so believable because of Tolkien’s experience in World War 1, and then the emotional aspect is furthered again thanks to Peter Jackson.
Overall, I think Frodo feels the most guilt. After all, it’s his decision to take the ring Mordor in the first place.
I feel the most sympathy for Pippin however because I sometimes see myself whenever he comes on screen. I could be very clumsy and people would either blow a fuse or laugh at me mockingly whenever I mess up.
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Wow, Elantari, great topic, and posts truly worthy of it! This is a case where by the time I read all the topics, everything I had to add has already been addresses, and more! So, just because I like my voice to be heard, I'll say, IT'S FATTY BOLGER'S FAULT!!
I also am a steward.
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...that it was Fatty-cili all along. LOL
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I think as far as to whom would feel the most guilt, I believe that as each person live in an egocentric world, each of the Gimli, Pippin, and Frodo may feel equally guilty. However, Pippin, being so young may feel it more. With age I believe we gain a little insight into the fact that there are many factors in life that direct our path. Gimli may feel a little more foolish because of him belief that Balin's group had successfully established a colony that the fellowship could depend on. And as has been mentioned before, frodo would feel the lose the greatest, as he was the closest of the three to Gandalf.
My 2 cents, for what it is worth.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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mowen
(Tue Apr 15 09:37:54)
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of being contrary I would have to say that the person feeling the most guilt for the fall of Gandalf is Gandalf himself.
Gandalf knows that as the unofficial leader of the fellowship it was his responsibility to lead them. At the moment of his fall, he knows that he has left behind 4 hobbits, a warring dwarf and elf, an unwilling ranger and a tortured man. He knows that he was the glue that bound the fellowship and that without him (as it proved) the fellowship was likely to break.
We should also remember that although it was Frodo's "choice" to go through Moria, it was Gandalf who abrogated responsibility by placing the burden of choice upon Frodo.
Maybe!
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Excellent thought, mowen!
This signature space for rent! Contact reine for details.
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Just wanted to say that you brought up a very good point and I agree with you. If anyone should feel guilty it should be Gandulf (not that I feel any of them should feel guilty). He was the only one who knew what he was doing and he never told any of the fellowship his plans, not even Aragorn or Frodo, which in hindsight would have been quite helpful.
The movie always makes me angry (for lack of a better word). If Gandulf would have moved his butt after the Balrog fell he would have been out of the way and the whip never would have caught him. He's how many thousands of years old? He should know not to let his guard down, now matter how exhausted he is.
Gimli shouldn't feel guilty for pushing the option of Moria because Boromir was pushing Gondor just as much: neither of them made the final decision.
For Frodo and Pippin I think they both happen a bit different in the book than the movie. In the film the choice was Frodo's but Gandulf pushed it on him. In the book I believe Gandulf chose. Either way Frodo cannot be blamed.
Someone said that in the book the orcs were already coming, if that's true then Pippin is not at fault. Someone said that Pippin woke the Balrog. But if no one had woken the Balrog the orcs would not have been scared off (I may be mixing film and book here).
Of course they're all going to feel bad/guilty. (You know in the film it seems like there would have been enough time for one of the men to run out there and grab Gandulf). But this does't mean any of them are responsible for his fall or should feel any guilt about it.
On a side note. Would the Balrog have perished when Sauron fell? If not then it is a good thing Gandulf fell or the Balrog would still be alive.
"Unnerving moment when bumped into Eomer. Thought he might be prettier than me until he took off helmet. Fortunately he looks like an aardvark."
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This is a great question, Elentari. Thanks for reviving it for us.
As for who has the most cause to feel guilty, it would seem to be Pippin. Gimli and Frodo should not be held responsible because their desire/decision to enter the mines was fairly distant from the events immediately preceding Gandalf's fall. At the time they were suggesting or deciding it, there really were an infinite number of ways in which the Fellowship could have escaped the mines safely. But Pippin's actions are more directly traceable to the outcome. He awoke the Watcher in the Water, sealing the decision to go all the way through the mines. Then he disturbed the well, apparently bringing the Balrog to bear upon the Fellowship. The inability of the Fellowship to turn back and to a lesser extent the arrival of the Balrog and other enemies are directly traceable to Pippin's actions. Furthermore, Pippin's contribution to the catastrophe was made through carelessness. Maybe his carelessness is excusable because he's very young and inexperienced, but it was carelessness. Frodo and Gimli's contributions were made through judgment calls. Gimli's judgment call seems a little less solid, since he at least at first was only trying to speed the Fellowship along. Then on Caradhras both he and Frodo judged that Moria would be a safer route. Both believed it to be true because they didn't understand the current situation in Moria. Here Gimli is possibly more excusable than Frodo, because Gimli couldn't have known what changes had been wrought in Moria (this is only in the movie version, of course) and Frodo should have known better than to make the decision when he knew so little at all. Still, they did what they thought was right, whereas Pippin didn't think. Given that Pippin could have so easily prevented his contributions to the fall, it seems he has most cause to feel guilty.
But you asked who we believed felt most guilty. I believe Pippin would have reached the same conclusion I did, and felt horrible. But in my experience, it's possible to feel just as horrible when you're not really to blame as when you are. You make up reasons for which you should have been able to prevent whatever happened, or reasons for which your actions led to it. So although in a more rational state of mind, Frodo and Gimli might have realized they weren't very much to blame, they probably felt just as bad as Pippin did.
Here's another thought, though. I wonder how guilty Legolas might have felt. This is probably more of the irrational self-blame mentioned in the paragraph above. However, it must have occurred to him that with his elven speed and agility, and with Aragorn taking charge and carrying hobbits to safety (was he carrying hobbits at the time? I can't remember; confirmation would be appreciated), Legolas was really the only one who could have even tried to pull Gandalf back. In my opinion, he would have failed at this, but would he blame himself for not attempting it? Perhaps he would feel his fear of the Balrog prevented him and blame his weakness for allowing Gandalf to fall. This could be a stretch, but in considering this recall Legolas' joy when he met Gandalf the White in TTT. Of course it could just be happiness at seeing a friend essentially returned from the dead, but could it not also be relief at seeing that his weakness and inaction did not cause the death of his friend and leader?
This is the longest post I've ever written! Thanks again for the thought-provoking topic, Elentari.
Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.
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in the books gandalf was the one that wanted to go to moria. aragorn diddnt. pippin didnt get the orcs following them that was already happening though he didnt know. Id say frodo and pippin were the most guilty in the books. Pippin felt guilty even though he wasnt responsible. It was frodo that bore the ring id say he felt most responsible.
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It's true that the movie diverges from the book here. I wonder if the departure was made with thoughts of guilt in mind? One danger of action/adventure movies is that they can lose character development and emotion. By making Frodo the one who decided to go through Moria and Pippin the one who attracted the orcs, Jackson forced the two innocent hobbits to assume a rueful sense of responsibility. They've probably never felt such guilt before. This new stage in their psyches, plus the grief we see in them, brings more "humanity" to the film.
This signature space for rent! Contact reine for details.
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My question is do you really think Gandalf made a sacrifice? I don't think he had much choice in the matter.
"Who wields the flame of Arnor now, you poncy tosser?"
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sinaes
(Fri Jun 6 12:36:08)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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sinaes
(Tue Jul 8 23:06:25)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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