I haven't read the Sil yet,so I was wondering if someone could sum up the history of the Orcs for me.
Also,are orcs immortal,if they were elves once?
And wouldn't it be awkward for the Elves and Orcs to meet?Seeing how they are somewhat related?
Are the orcs and Uruk-Hai completely evil?Is there any capacity to be good in them?Do you think it is possible for something to be truly evil,with no trace of good in them?
Anyone want a cheeseburger?I got a cheeseburger in my back pocket.
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1)Orcs ar NOT immortal. When they were first "created" in the First Age, they were all messed up and I guess their immortality was lost in the process.
2) In the visual guide that I have, it states that elves and orcs have always had a sour relationship.
3)I guess they could be coaxed into becomming good but it wont happen over night. I guess if you wanted to do that, it would be like training a tiger: they'll always be dangerous and always have their instinct.
"You have got to be the worst ringnut I've ever heard of!"
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So you think that evil is just in their blood then? It makes sense,taking into account their creator and such.
Anyone want a cheeseburger?I got a cheeseburger in my back pocket.
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Orcs and Uruk-Hai are not evil, they are victims of circumstance. There was an opening in the job market and they took it.
If thou art in haste, remember the Paths of the Dead.
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Just my impressions on it...
I never thought of Orcs as immortal...although even if they were their lifestyle doesn't really give longevity any chance anyway.
Elves found Orcs to be a total affront to nature and seem disgusted by their mere presence. When they meet it's unlikely for both to come out alive.
I don't think there's any more hope for them to be good than there is for Sauron...but maybe that's just my Elveness speaking...
Benifits of writing a fictional fantasy...a race can be pure evil if you want...
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Yes life expectancy ain't so good.
Thanks Leg.
Anyone want a cheeseburger?I got a cheeseburger in my back pocket.
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There are two schools of thought on whether Orcs are immortal or not - those that say they are, and those that say they're not.
It's one of the things that Tolkien never explicitly explains one way or the other. He wasn't even exactly sure of the origin of Orcs.
Tolkien never seems to have firmly resolved this question in his own mind, let alone on paper. While The Silmarillion as published states fairly clearly that Orcs were corrupted Elves, Unfinished Tales hints that some strains of Orcs may have been bred from the Druedain. Tolkien's latest writings on the issue (found in Texts VIII-X of the "Myths Transformed" section in Morgoth's Ring) show him considering many possible origins: corrupted Elves, corrupted Men, very minor Maiar (a small number of original Orcish leaders only), or even beasts given fragments of Morgoth's own will so they would have some measure of independence. Some combination of these origins seems most likely from the texts, though the last of them was probably rejected.
This uncertainty casts doubts over what could constitute answers to all of the questions you asked.
If they weren't actually immortal, they appeared to be able to live for a very long time (where their dangerous lifestyle allowed). In RotK, Sam hears Gorbag speaking to Shagrat:
'...if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own... somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
Sauron had then been ruling Mordor for sixty-eight years, but Shagrat and Gorbag seem to recall a time when he wasn't in charge. This could mean that they were over seventy years old and that it took Sauron many years to establish his leadership.
Gorbag also mentions "the Great Siege", which might refer either to the siege of the Last Alliance on Mordor or to the siege of Angband in the First Age - either of these would make him extremely old. Of course, he may not be speaking from personal recollection.
One of the strongest bits of evidence of the longevity of ORcs is based on the death dates of the Orc Azog and his son Bolg. Azog was killed at the Battle of Azanulbizar in 2799, while Bolg was killed at the Battle of Five Armies in 2941. Thus, Bolg was still alive and strong over 140 years after his conception.
"Eschew obfuscation."- Lianachan
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Wow Lian you certainly know your stuff!
It appears that they at least live longer than the average human doesn't it?
Thanks alot 
Anyone want a cheeseburger?I got a cheeseburger in my back pocket.
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The history of the Orcs? Okay... this is a little long, but I hope it's worth it.
In the first days, the Elves lived under the stars and they loved the stars. When they were called to Valinor to dwell in the bliss of the Two Trees, they were loath to leave their stars and doubted whether or not there could be greater light than the stars. Most of the Elves left on the Great Journey to Valinor, but on the way some went astray or fell behind because they wanted to savour their last gazes at the stars. These Melkor captured and brought to Utumno (his stronghold) and tortured them until they were no longer the fair beings they once were. Hence, they were Orcs. This deed was, to Ilúvatar, the foulest of Melkor's.
As for immortality, I think that in the torture and mutilation, they lost everything that Elves are. Every single characteristic, including their physical form. No longer the tall, slender, graceful form of the Elves, the Orcs were now bow-legged, long-armed, slightly hunchbacked beings.
No, it wouldn't be awkward. They were both out to kill each other - the Elves because killing the Orcs would prohibit Melkor's expansion into Beleriand and the Ors because Melkor said so. It was said that the Orcs were the Elves' worst enemy. A bit ironic, eh?
As I said, I think that the Orcs lost everything Elf-like. They are therefore wholly evil.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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The origins of Orcs are not something that Tolkien himself was sure of - see my posting above, with the subject "Orcs".
Also, while Orcs were definately known to be a creation of Melkor - and therefore they are indeed wholly evil - it's not fair to say they are evil as they have "lost everything Elf-like". Elves are not entirely "good" - just ask any of the petty-Dwarves they used to hunt for sport, for example.
"Eschew obfuscation."- Lianachan
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Ah, I see. I just jumped in and replied after I read the original post; I was going off on what "The Sil" said:
Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. [...] This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar. ("Of the Coming of the Elves")
Also, somewhere in TTT, Treebeard mentions how trolls were made as a mockery of the Ents, just as Orcs were made as a mockery of the Elves. But I won't argue with you, since you've read more Tolkien literature than I. 
And yeah... good point about the Elves; I forgot about the Petty-Dwarves! 
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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 by -
Lianachan
(Mon Jul 28 09:17:07)
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 UPDATED Mon Jul 28 09:18:36 |
If Tolkien had published The Silmarillion himself, I'd have accepted that Orcish origin with no problems. But as is, there are a variety of origins in other things he never got round to publishing - which Christopher Tolkien did. Since Tolkien was known to not be entirely sure of the origins, I go with that - uncertain origins.
However, if you go by the publications that are more in canon, then you are perfectly right to state that Orcs were made from Elves .
"Eschew obfuscation."- Lianachan
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Hmm... good point. My copy of "The Sil" is the Revised Edition; I have a friend whose mother has the original edition. Maybe that's the edition that Christopher didn't touch... well, I'll see if I can get my hands on it, to check it out.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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sinaes
(Tue Aug 5 01:51:03)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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Not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall
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