Today I received a pm from someone on the boards. Who gave me permission to post a private message that was sent to me? I thought it might be fun for everyone to comment on who they think wrote this pm. As well as comment on the topic if you choose too. I also think it is an interesting exposition on what we perceive is going on in someone else’s head and the perceptions we entertain.
496 a
So only a very small remnant survives, Adeimantus, of all those worthy to have any dealings with philosophy - perhaps some honest man saved by the circumstance of exile from the influences that would corrupt his natural loyalty to her, or some great mind born in a petty state and so despising politics; and there may be a gifted few who turn to philosophy from other occupations which they rightly despise. I suppose, too, that there are some who are handicapped like our friend Theages who had every other temptation to desert philosophy, but was prevented by bad health from going into public life. My own divine sign, I think, hardly counts, as hardly anyone before me has had it. This small company, then, when they have tasted the happiness of philosophy and seen the frenzy of the masses, understand that political life has virtually nothing sound about it, and that they'll find no ally to save them in the fight for justice; and if they're not prepared to join others in their wickedness, and yet are unable to fight the general savagery single-handed, they are likely to perish like a man thrown among wild beasts, without profit to themselves or others, before they can do any good to their friends or society. When they reckon all this up, they live quietly and keep to themselves, like a man who stands under the shelter of a wall during a driving storm of dust and hail; they see the rest of the world full of wrongdoing, and are content to keep themselves unspotted from wickedness and wrong in this life, and finally leave it with cheerful composure and good hope.
Just wow, do you have any comments?
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CTS-1
(Wed Jun 4 22:30:44)
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From which book is this?
Rather ironic from the man who wrote "Republic," the original source of all political philosophy, to be so stringent is separating the two.
Look- he's trying to think!
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To be honest CTS, I'm not sure which book it is from...
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Off the top of my head, my first reaction instinctive reaction is to say that the main focus of Plato is a perfect society. He created a blueprint for a utopian society, in his book The Republic, out of his disdain for the tension of political life. This blueprint was a sketch of a society in which the problems he thought were present in his society would be eased. Plato sought to cure the afflictions of both human society and human personality. Essentially what Plato wants to achieve is a perfect society. (Marx borrowed heavily from Plato) when you read Plato you can see how it influenced him. As well as Aristotle.
It is interesting to note that Plato was tempted by political life, but resisted the pull of this temptation. I guess he became a great political writer instead.
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Sir_Big_V
(Wed Jun 4 22:35:45)
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 UPDATED Wed Jun 4 22:36:39 |
Here we go again...another fluff thread...
I don't know about you Paul...
I guess it is time to get to work...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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 your not going to guess SBV?
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Gimme time...I recently got home from work...I have a thread of my own to start...I think you will appreciate it...
I have not eaten in over 8 hours. I am going for food...then will post either tonight or in the AM...keep peeled, both here and on the board...you will know my thread when you see it.
Another fluff piece...like yours.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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you just home... it's 2 am here gotta go bud...
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I got home about 12:45 (same time zone)...took out the trash, checked email and the boards...got some food...2:15 AM...currently.
Either way, I will keep my contributions to this thread thoroughly platonic.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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xTrinityx
(Wed Jun 4 23:01:18)
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| UPDATED Wed Jun 4 23:01:59 |
Wally? (based on style; content...eh)
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear"~Doc Holliday, Tombstone.
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 Other people hinted at it but you said it!
Way to go Trinity... 
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xTrinityx
(Thu Jun 5 19:06:36)
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| UPDATED Thu Jun 5 19:07:11 |
Cool deal.  Now, what did I win? 
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear"~Doc Holliday, Tombstone.
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My style? ;0 I wrote maybe, I dunno, 4 words. I'm amazed you could get that.
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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xTrinityx
(Fri Jun 6 18:25:36)
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| UPDATED Fri Jun 6 18:28:27 |
I figured that, which is what was confusing initially (check my reply to Nasty's first post in this thread) It was that last line that cemented my hunch lol. Particularly this part:
Just wow, do you have any comments?
That part is all you, and the rest is Plato, no?
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear"~Doc Holliday, Tombstone.
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Bang on. Very perceptive Trinity. I'm impressed.
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear"~Doc Holliday, Tombstone.
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My understanding is that the above is a cut and paste of text from the writings of Plato which someone sent to you. If that is correct, how are we to guess who sent it? Without any personal input from the sender, are we supposed to guess who is the most likely to have cut and pasted a block of text?
On to the content. The author makes a clear distinction between philosophy and politics, but this quote contains no hint as to his definitions of either, so I'll have to make a few assumptions here.
I believe the author sees philosophy as pure, a thought-based activity unsullied by the grubbiness of practical daily life (vis the references to remaining unspotted). He surmises that the philosophical path is the natural end to which a politically active person will come after realising the futility of trying to "make a difference". He finishes with the conclusion that this natural progression leads to happiness. That's my take on it anyway. Personally I find this an intellectual cop out, and my gut instinct is that this attitude springs from sour grapes. I suspect the author aspired to political heights, but failed, and is now rationalizing that failure into success in his own mind. He appears to be justifying the quitter's mentality. Don't try to do good, its no use, you won't succeed. Just give up and keep away from the wickedness, its the best you can hope to achieve. I'm rather amazed at the ego of the author as well. He has an extremely high opinion of himself, referring to his "own divine sign" and saying hardly anyone before him has had it, and appearing to be smugly waiting for lesser minds to catch up to his own realizations. I'm probably way off the mark and will be very embarrassed when the true details are known, but those are my thoughts on the lines you posted, which are of course completely without a context.
Be excellent to each other and party on dude!
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xTrinityx
(Wed Jun 4 23:16:02)
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| UPDATED Wed Jun 4 23:16:40 |
My understanding is that the above is a cut and paste of text from the writings of Plato which someone sent to you. If that is correct, how are we to guess who sent it? Without any personal input from the sender, are we supposed to guess who is the most likely to have cut and pasted a block of text?
That's what I was thinking initially. Then I guessed anyway thinking maybe I was wrong or had misread.
"I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bear"~Doc Holliday, Tombstone.
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Has Smash been sending you PMs again, Paul? 
I think that both politics and philosophy are excellent endeavors, but both must be approached with a sense of detachment and with no expectation that either will be the salvation of the soul.
Having said that, I can't quite accept Plato's vision of one remaining "unspotted from wickedness and wrong in this life ..."
This sounds almost Treebeardian, detached from the troubles of men and elves ...
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I think that both politics and philosophy are excellent endeavors, but both must be approached with a sense of detachment and with no expectation that either will be the salvation of the soul.
I couldn't agree more val!
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I don't think politics is a good endevor. Hmm... maybe I'll post the similie of the large and dangerous animial... its somewhat the foundation of what Plato is trying to say in the first excerpt.
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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eowyn maybe even legolas ;)
The Matrix has you!
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Broc
(Thu Jun 5 09:51:12)
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Stopping long enough to make an insightful comment --
We know Plato was a [cough!] Republican.
Therefore, may we reasonably assume that he would have voted for Dubya? Logical, no?
Brrraaaaaawwwk!
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Aristotle was the Republican, Plato was the hippie. 
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Broc
(Thu Jun 5 10:07:48)
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That's right -- Plato's managing Hillary's campaign --
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Aristotle was a Muslim guys. :)
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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Broc!! How are you? I missed you Monday because I had to prove that I wasn't addicted so I couldn't be online. How's you summer?
Sunsets are loved because they vanish
Flowers are loved because they go.
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Broc
(Thu Jun 5 10:06:26)
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SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime! SummerTime!
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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I wish Summer was over. A nine year old who is bored and has an additude! two preschoolers who can not be taken shopping. I haven't been kick out of a store yet but it's only a matter of time. And a hubby who is workin and at school all the time form 5:30 a.m to 10:30 p.m I want Fall right now!
Sunsets are loved because they vanish
Flowers are loved because they go.
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Well, I'm pretty sure this is from The Republic, though there is a play "Theages" that Plato wrote as well. As for who sent it to you, I have no clue. Could have been any number of folks on this board. Ali's reading Neitzche right now. GaugeMistress is very up on philosophy. Wajz very well read, as is Wally.
Personally, I find the opening statement a bit elitest. Granted the observation that there are great minds born in the poorest circumstances and little mind born in the greatest "I'm not going to mention the president, I'm not going to mention the president" is a very true one. But the perception that "we small few are the only worthies" (to prarphrase) is intellectually elitest. Plato always sounded to me like he was saying, "I and only I have all the answers." Which I think is impossible for one person or even one culture to have all the answers. Plato is right about a lot of things, but his lack of humility is a bit grating on the modern mind. Mind, that is a modern perception of ancient ways of expressing oneself, perhaps this was the norm for self expression then. But what happens if you don't agree with them? Are you then "not worthy?" I mean the Great Greek Democracy is the same group of people who coined the term "Natural Slave" because they did not recognize the validity of cultures that did not have direct anologies to their own.
But the rest of it, well I agree that men must live as their concience dictates. But the statement that "This small company, then, when they have tasted the happiness of philosophy and seen the frenzy of the masses, understand that political life has virtually nothing sound about it, and that they'll find no ally to save them in the fight for justice; and if they're not prepared to join others in their wickedness, and yet are unable to fight the general savagery single-handed, they are likely to perish like a man thrown among wild beasts, without profit to themselves or others, before they can do any good to their friends or society." Sounds very hopeless and self-defeating. It is in direct opposition to Margret Mead's "Never doubt that a small group of thoughful, committed citzens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Very direct contrast to Tolkien vision as well, if I may bring this back OT. LOTR has a small group of people doing exactly that.
I'm always for the fight. Even if you change nothing at that moment, as indeed the hundreds of thousands that marched in the U.S. against the Iraq war did not, your voice will be heard by somebody and might effect change down the road. If you never put the thought out there, then how will the idea get into anyone's head? Even if they never agree with you, you have at least put the idea in their mind.
Greek Democracy failed combined with inner corrpution, plague and conquest from the outside. But their ideas were heard by men with the names of Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, et al who did effect great change.
"Too small for a Republic, too large for an insane assylum."
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I'm always for the fight. Even if you change nothing at that moment, as indeed the hundreds of thousands that marched in the U.S. against the Iraq war did not, your voice will be heard by somebody and might effect change down the road. If you never put the thought out there, then how will the idea get into anyone's head? Even if they never agree with you, you have at least put the idea in their mind.
Greek Democracy failed combined with inner corrpution, plague and conquest from the outside. But their ideas were heard by men with the names of Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, et al who did effect great change.
I read once that all lasting change is a gradual process, based on unfolding traditions and developing institutions. Revolutionary upheavals may change how the world looks but seldom changes the way the world works. Lasting historical change comes not through tidal waves but through the irresistible creeping tide. The great thing is that the principles of democracy were solid ideas, that just kept creeping in with the tide.
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I read once that all lasting change is a gradual process, based on unfolding traditions and developing institutions. Revolutionary upheavals may change how the world looks but seldom changes the way the world works. Lasting historical change comes not through tidal waves but through the irresistible creeping tide. The great thing is that the principles of democracy were solid ideas, that just kept creeping in with the tide.
This is actually quite wrong. Slow gradual change is unstoppable. Entropy marches on, the inexorable flow of time effects the biggest changes it is true...
However...
These changes themselves change over time. They are not "lasting", and when viewed in the same time-scale as the long chain of small changes that led up to it, appear as fleeting and as ephemeral as each little change.
Large changes, short sharp changes, sudden changes can and do effect a difference that can be lasting when viewed on a similar timescale as the length of the events that led up to it. Revolutions such as the French, American, Russian were relatively short events, but each of these have had a lasting effect on the citizens of each country for hundreds of years.
Its all relative, the slow changes effect greater change, but the timescale needed for those changes to become significant render the results relatively shorter lives.
Be excellent to each other and party on dude!
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Hi Nastyboy, haven't spoke to you in awhile, interesting observation as usual!. But perhaps we may be diverging on each other’s thinking and interpretation in this regard. Philosophy, Physics, and theoretical principles can be hard to combine into the right formula equaling change. But I see the point you are trying to make!
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Philosophers tend to take the long view, and subsequently miss what is right under their noses. People that are more practically bent tend to sometimes see too much detail and miss the big picture.
The middle ground, as always, has the most balanced view.
Be excellent to each other and party on dude!
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This is the story of Thales, the first known Greek philosopher. He also could be described as one of those who take the long view and miss what's right under their noses.
Thales was walking in his village one day, absorbed in thought. He was looking up and thinking great, long-viewed thoughts, so he missed what was right under his nose. He fell into a well. Everyone in the village laughed at him and made jokes about him. This was in the spring of the year.
At harvest time, the local landowners harvested their olives. Now, most olives are pressed to make oil, so the farmers loaded up their carts and took their crop to the mills to be pressed only to find that all the mills belonged to new owner who was charging high rates for pressing. Having no choice, they paid the high rates and went home with their amphora of oil. The new owner? You guessed! Thales. He got rich. I guess you could say he found the Golden Mean.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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"Well, I'm pretty sure this is from The Republic, though there is a play "Theages" that Plato wrote as well. As for who sent it to you, I have no clue. Could have been any number of folks on this board. Ali's reading Neitzche right now. GaugeMistress is very up on philosophy. Wajz very well read, as is Wally.
Personally, I find the opening statement a bit elitest. Granted the observation that there are great minds born in the poorest circumstances and little mind born in the greatest "I'm not going to mention the president, I'm not going to mention the president" is a very true one. But the perception that "we small few are the only worthies" (to prarphrase) is intellectually elitest. Plato always sounded to me like he was saying, "I and only I have all the answers." Which I think is impossible for one person or even one culture to have all the answers. Plato is right about a lot of things, but his lack of humility is a bit grating on the modern mind. Mind, that is a modern perception of ancient ways of expressing oneself, perhaps this was the norm for self expression then. But what happens if you don't agree with them? Are you then "not worthy?" I mean the Great Greek Democracy is the same group of people who coined the term "Natural Slave" because they did not recognize the validity of cultures that did not have direct anologies to their own."
Yea, I don't think Plato is getting at being better or worse, but the context of this statement is based in the previous portion, the similie of the large adn dangerous animial, in which democracy (specifically in Athens, but applicable today, especially with the mass media, its amazing how accurate it is still today) is not an enviroment in which philosophy or philosophers are elite, but "inneffective and useless", to quote again. Plato is basicly saying "no, we can't be elite in this society."
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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Let's see: A large and dangerous animal, a manipulative (and manipulated) mass media and a super-power military developing non-lethal "crowd-control" weapons as fast as it can ...
I think I'll go find a cave and read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" until it's safe to come back out.
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"Let's see: A large and dangerous animal, a manipulative (and manipulated) mass media and a super-power military developing non-lethal "crowd-control" weapons as fast as it can ...
I think I'll go find a cave and read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" until it's safe to come back out."
No actually, the other way around, the large dangerous animial is manipulated by society/media as it's trainer.
Lie:Episode I was a good movie
Truth:http://punpages.uh?.sht/glucas/ScenesofSmashatWC.pdf
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The question that was asked is:
R.496.a
"And so when men unfit for culture approach philosophy and consort with her, unworthily, what sort of ideas and opinions shall we say that they beget? Will they not produce what may in very deed be fairly called sophisms, and nothing that is genuine or that partakes of true intelligence?"
Plato was a terrible elitist, but it's nice to know that someone else owns a copy of his works.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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athene-5
2 days ago (Thu Jul 17 20:18:14)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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