I found this one in my computer thought I'd repost it. Considering it was deleted from Athene’s list of Good posts.
Thoughts on the Shadow World and the discourse between Smeagol & Gollum
and the transformation of the soul.
In my opinion as well as many others one of the most captivating characters in (LOTR) is the unforgiving, tortured soul of Smeagol /Gollum. Once long ago as an harmless hobbit named Smeagol, his natural curiosity and love for life were turned to hatred, treachery, and subservience to Sauron when he murdered his cousin Deagol for a little shiny ring found in a river. The ring was "The lost One Ring of Sauron" and Smeagol naively could not resist the promise of power and immortality the ring offered him. Time pasted and Gollum spent centuries afterward skulking about in dark underground places afraid of the sun, and eternally obsessed with his precious. Even his physical form changed he became ugly, dark and reptilian in appearance, and his eyes shone in the dark with a dim greenish glow. Which was masterfully shown in (FOTR).
Know one probably would have found out if it weren’t for an adventurous hobbit named Bilbo Baggins, who found and claimed the Ring during a visit to the caverns beneath the Misty Mountains. So Gollum / Smeagol was forced to emerge from his subterranean refuge and seek out the Ring that had claimed his soul for so many years. For he hates and loves the ring, as he hates and loves himself. Unfortunately for Gollum the ring is the highest example of divinity in moral consequence.
I believe that Tolkien must have read Carl Gustav Jung a Swiss psychiatrist, "Treatise on the Shadow" if he didn’t then Smeagol / Gollum is a marvelous literary example of which so fascinated Jung. Actually there is an important difference between dissociation disorder and Schizophrenia, in reference to Gollum / Smeagol in my opinion the character doesn’t have Schizophrenia! A person with Schizophrenia does not have connected thoughts and feelings they are "split". A person with dissociation, however, has memories, actions, identities, etc., that are unconnected. Different thoughts and feelings may be connected, but different thoughts and different memories may be connected to some and not the others. I would be very interested in everyone's opinion on this matter though.
The shadow, as Jung believed, was a source of great drive and inspiration for people. Yet it was also a place where we kept many repressed impulses and fears. When it was dealt with correctly, a healthy psyche could make use of the energy and insights stored there. When it was denied and buried, it came out in really nasty behaviors and psychoses. i.e. (Gollum). Jung was a proponent of understanding the shadow, no matter how dark and scary it looked to our everyday minds. He felt we really couldn't be whole without it. But since our mainstream culture attaches such significance to darkness and makes it something we should fear and fight and feel guilty about, not a whole lot is done with the shadow these days. Perhaps Tolkien’s Smeagol / Gollum character was just such an attempt at imbuing a literary character with such qualities that deal with the shadow. Everyone carries a shadow and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. At all counts, it forms an unconscious snag, thwarting our most well-meant intentions."
PJ seems to have taken what Tolkien said and very cleverly displayed that one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. Which is fantastic because it was in direct opposition to the Elves completeness of being.
As I was thinking about this post I wrote a little aphorisms about the subject and it goes something like this...
Multiple layers like
Footprints around a well
Layers there always there
Even for the one who say’s no
I’ll wait… ………
For the shadow world draws near
I can feel it…
I found it intriguing when Gandalf proclaimed to the Balrog when they were fighting to "Go back to the shadow" just before the Balrog fell.
As well as when Galadriel said "Gandalf had fallen into shadow."
If anyone has a different interpretation on the "Shadow" that I referenced in the (FOTR) and there were others as well! I would be very interested in your thoughts or elaborations on the subject.
With Gollum / Smeagol Tolkien further delves into the role or methodology of evil intentions. With Gollum / Smeagol he takes this tension and the pull of opposites one step further by bring ambiguous qualities that are vague, uncertain, confusing unclear etc.) into the soul of this character.
Quote from Gandalf speaking to Frodo when Gandalf exclaimed it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand when he didn't kill Gollum:
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.
What powerful advise from Gandalf it sends shivers down the spine. Is this Tolkiens answer to presupposed evil!
When Smeagol weeped and Gollum said his dark words in comfort, the scene was an alarming picture of wretched misery that conjured feelings beyond pity, more of an overwhelming sense of disloyalty. In Gollum you have the one character in whom the fight between good and evil is the most apparent and personal. Deep down I think we all felt it..
Which turns our thoughts to Frodo let's hope he doesn't succumb to the Shadow!
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Ready- here it goes, you knew it was coming- Eliot used the Shadow in several of his poems as well .
But on to the topic. I do not see Gollum quite the same as most seem to. I think that he tended toward the "darkness" before the Ring. He killed before he got the Ring. He made the choice to do wrong to get it in the first place. The Ring took advantage of that. I also think that his penchant for hording things, for having it all to himself was there at first as well. This benefited the Ring at the time because as Sauron had been temporarily defeated the Ring needed to "hide out" so that the stronger (for a brief time) good side did not discover it.
I think that while Gandalf had sympathy for Gollum he did say he held very little hope for his "being cured" (which I find very interesting terminology from Tolkien who choses his words very carefully- but that's another post). He did feel there was a purpose for his being and he also felt that power should not be used to destroy things just because you could. I must say in this case I find him much more forgiving than I feel I would be. I know that makes me somewhat heartless.
About the darkness within as Jung identifies it. I certainly hate to argue with a top thinker . But I think that everyone has both within. And I don't think that you have to let them both "come out". In otherwords sometimes I feel like that people are saying it is healthy to do "bad" things. Or that if you are a good person you are somehow "repressing" yourself and you'll pay for it. And Paul I am not saying you are saying that!!! (Disclaimers are important.) I just think sometimes people use that idea as "justification" I guess. I do think that people need to realize that a certain amount of "bad" thoughts (or whatever you want to call it) are a part of human nature and normal. People should not feel that in some way they are "bad" people because of it. And yes, a total denial of those things- there existence in themselves or their subconsciousness, can lead to problems. They must be faced and handled. Okay too much psycho-analyzing for me tonight.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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Quickly, the only real difference of opinion I have here with you, is with regard to "the shadow coming out". I don't think it has to be reflected in everyday life, but more in the conscious. If I know that a part of my personal "inner Shadow" is a desire to steal...and I bury it and do not acknowledge it, it will force it's way out somehow, in a destructive way. On the other hand, if I acknowledge that "shadow" as a part of myself, I can admit it, understand what it is and where it came from, not bury it, and deal with it without it becoming a controlling force in my life. It is the unacknowledged Shadow that controls and destroys. Acknowledging it gives it the opportunity to be dealt with safely. For instance, when Sam carries the Ring, it tempts him with kingship over a world of gardens. He acknowledges that as much as he loves gardening, that desire is not going to control him in a dark way, and cause him to try to remake the world in the image of that inner desire.
So much for short...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Why can't I say things that clear. Exactly what I was thinking. Everyone has these types of things (each to the individual) and they have to be handled and not ignored. But not okay to run around giving in all the time either.
I think another thing to keep in mind which you brought up so well is keeping these things in mind because they are where you are weakest. If you continually deny them, then that weakness can and will be used by someone or something against you.
Thanks as usual (and who says short is good )
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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To answer your last question, first...
Someone who is 6'4" can find short to be refreshingly pain free!
Thank you. I suspected where you were going, and am thankful that I was able to help bring you there. More later...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Hey, now if we are discussing height I could use a bit more- 5'3" here. But when we are discussing words, then if they are put together well, then sometimes there aren't enough. (I've got to work on the putting them together well.)
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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I know both sides...my wife is lucky if she is 5'1"...
We average out great, though
I love words. They are always fun...
My response to your tagline, I believe comes from Marilyn Monroe, but I am not sure...
"Live life to never be ashamed of anything they say about you...even if it is true."
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I will have to add that quote to my books- I like it!
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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I believe that Tolkien must have read Carl Gustav Jung a Swiss psychiatrist, "Treatise on the Shadow" if he didn’t then Smeagol / Gollum is a marvelous literary example of which so fascinated Jung. Actually there is an important difference between dissociation disorder and Schizophrenia, in reference to Gollum / Smeagol in my opinion the character doesn’t have Schizophrenia! A person with Schizophrenia does not have connected thoughts and feelings they are "split". A person with dissociation, however, has memories, actions, identities, etc., that are unconnected. Different thoughts and feelings may be connected, but different thoughts and different memories may be connected to some and not the others. I would be very interested in everyone's opinion on this matter though.
I'm a bit confused here, particularly by the part in bold. Can you expound on that? I'm interested because my mother had/has schizophrenia.
"...All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
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Uhh...can someone explain that part I quoted, please? I mean, I didn't realize this thread had already been done, but come on guys, one of the rare occasions I venture into the 'deep' end of the pool and you're going to just sit there and let me drown?
"...All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
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Not letting you drown here- honest. I don't know either. I do not know a lot of facts about psychological problems in any form in humans. Sorry, veterinary medicine is usually easy to transfer over to humans but not in this case. I would be interested to find out too.
Did you identify anything that you have experienced with schizophrenia with Gollum's character? I thought of him more as just having two personalities which is not schizophrenia, right? Actually, I did not "see" the character that way at all really until I watched the movie. I just assumed that Gollum was experiencing inner turmoil of good vs. evil. I thought that PJ made a very good visual effect that really got the point across in the movie visually for the audience. But as didn't see that myself as I was reading it. (Which is, I guess, where my earlier replies started. However, it is usually difficult to tell where I start and stop when it comes to ideas.)
Do you mind me asking if your mother is okay? Maybe that is better handled in a pm- if so I am not prying here- really!
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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Hi xTrinityx, sorry for the slow response! first I am certainly not an authority on the subject. But I will try to answer your question?
A person with Schizophrenia does not have connected thoughts and feelings they are "split".
Resulting from a division of personality traits, a separation.
A person with dissociation, however, has memories, actions, identities, etc., that are unconnected. Different thoughts and feelings may be connected, but different thoughts and different memories may be connected to some and not the others.
Basically it's still revolves within the same personality I believe.
I hope this helps.....
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Paul, my head hurts.
OK...I am going to tackle this from the side. I think (sort of off your topic, but kind of on it, with some side elements thrown in .
I would argue that Gollum/Smeagol is a reflection of the inner shadow within each of us, and is but one example Tolkien uses, although likely the most poignant.
We see creatures who seem to be purely good-hearted...Pippin, for instance, who is so pure early that he is naive. On the other hand, we have good, hardened and embittered by poor communication (Dwarves and Elves), good with a hard edge from life's experiences (Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn), we see good with a fatal flaw (Boromir (flaw was pride), Saruman (flaw was pride), or Denethor (flaw was pride...notice a trend). We also have pure evil characters, like the Orcs, Sauron and Shelob, who are driven by a desire to destroy, dominate or lustful feeding.
Then, we have Gollum. Gollum is introduced as evil in The Hobbit. He was greedy and sneaky when young. This was his "unacknowledged Shadow." The Ring recognized this in him, exaggerated those characteristics, twisted him and dominated him to make him into Gollum. When we first meet him, it is 498 years after he found the Ring. He loves and hates himself, as he loves and hates the Ring. It owns him. He knows it. He is miserable whether he has it or not. He is also desperately lonely and alone. Here, I think, is what partially redeems him and allows Smeagol to come to the fore. He has had no intelligent conversation in around 500 years. He also acknowledges no fault within himself, continuing his Shadow.
We see a change in him, however, starting in TTT. What causes it? Frodo shows him kindness, and addresses him by name. Remember, we recently had a thread from Aule, called "What's in a name?" The answer, to a degree, is "Potentially, everything." A name can reflect the person.
This creature we discuss was once Smeagol, who had a friend, and a family, although he was not very popular. They started to call him Gollum, which came from spite and hatred. He eventually rejected Smeagol and became Gollum, wholeheartedly, and paid the price.
We see the beginning of his potential redemption beautifully portrayed by Serkis and PJ when Frodo first addresses him as Smeagol. Aside from the Ring, the one thing he has hungered for for centuries, was someone to be kind to him. We actually see the debate between the evil creature, Gollum, and the former Hobbit, aged, tired, and lonely. This also plays out so that the first hint of "betrayal" by "Master" receives a response in kind.
Some characters in the books grow by facing their "inner shadows" and others cannot face it, or try an fail, and lose.
As a final aside, it is interesting that Galadriel faces her "inner Shadow" when Frodo offers her the Ring. However, although she passed the test and "grew" she also learned her fate, to fade with the Elves and pass into the West.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Really nice! I hadn't thought about Galadriel's temptation- even the elves. I always just dwelt on the fact she turned it away but she has to pay a price for that as well. It's never just simple is it?
Off to sleep- happy dreams all
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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That would be boring.
That is why we keep Paul H. around...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Yes, I agree it would be boring. But couldn't there be some sort of happy complications? Maybe we can get Paul to work on that one!
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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Sorry TBV, missed this one,. I can't say how much I'm amazed at the level of effort and thought you put into you posts. Great stuff as usual! excellent analysis..
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ty
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Gollum/ smeagol seems to be the character that fascinates most people who now Tolkeins world. This fascination seems more pronounced since his emergence in TTT, I have pondered on this and come up with my own conclusion.
We all have, to varying degrees demons within. Whether we be lawyers, accountants, or whatever, we have all (with occasional expections,) followed fairly regimented lives doing what was expected of us. This is usually pretty much the way we wanted our lives to go IMO but there is a little part of us that wishes to go off to the south seas pearl fishing, or goat herding in Nepal or something of that ilk. Some also may harbour deeper more criminal repressed desires.
Gollum is the embodiment of this, we can see in him one who gave in utterly to the 'dark side' (apologies for that phrase). He assures us that we are better staying on the straight and narrow, otherwise look how we might end up. That is crucial to the intrigue of gollum. People can see the goodness in Smeagol, the happiness when he wins the argument. Come ROTK we can see the happy go lucky hobbit he was when he was being a 'stand up' citizen of a hobbit. We can see a physical manifestation of what it is to give in to ones baser desires. It scares the pants off of us. It is also deliciously intriguing.
Handses?...Knife?...String or nothing!!
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I agree with you here, quite thoroughly...even with the subtle (unintentional, I am sure) dig at SW...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I agree with you here, quite thoroughly...even with the subtle (unintentional, I am sure) dig at SW...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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we can see in him one who gave in utterly to the 'dark side' (apologies for that phrase). He assures us that we are better staying on the straight and narrow, otherwise look how we might end up. That is crucial to the intrigue of gollum. People can see the goodness in Smeagol, the happiness when he wins the argument. Come ROTK we can see the happy go lucky hobbit he was when he was being a 'stand up' citizen of a hobbit. We can see a physical manifestation of what it is to give in to ones baser desires. It scares the pants off of us. It is also deliciously intriguing.
Interesting thoughts Greg, can't wait for (ROTK).
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Wow nice thoughts .. I'm glad I reposted this thread that was deleted. An old thread can still have life in it... .
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Hi Paul,
You know, I think I've actually met my own shadow, and he looks a lot like Gollum -- but he's psychologically only about six years old, and he wantses everything!!
So I made a deal with him: He can imagine that he can have anything in the world that he wants.
But I, on the other hand, don't have to actually act to fulfill his impulses.
It seems to work as long as I remember that a lot of my own suffering is really just him in there always asking for all this stuff.
He's like the hungry ghost that can never be fulfilled, but is content if I simply acknowledge that he's there.
Does that make any sense to you?
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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 by -
athene-5
2 days ago (Thu Jul 17 20:21:51)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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company.
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License our content.
UPDATED Mon May 5 03:35:07
