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The_Ring
(Tue Jun 3 06:29:00)
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 UPDATED Tue Jun 3 06:57:30 |
Who were the "Kings" or Bosses of the elves when in the time of LOTR?
I can remenber 4:
Rivendel: Elrond(1/2Noldor, 1/2 Sindar and Man).
Lorien: Galadriel(Noldor).
Grey havens: Cirdan(Sindar).
Black Forest: The one who appeared in the Hobbit(Avari??)
Am I forgeting someone?? Who is the most important of them?
If you play with the best, Die like the rest...
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The only one I can think of that you're forgetting is Thranduil, the father of Legolas, in Mirkwood. Still I would say that Galadriel and Elrond are the eldest and wisest of them. And maybe Cirdan, but he has such a small part in the story. 
Nenya 
Gerich veleth nin
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Isn't Thranduil the one that appeared in the Hobbit??
If you play with the best, Die like the rest...
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Yes! He was the one who captured Bilbo and the dwarves.
Nenya
Gerich veleth nin
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Thranduil indeed captured the dwarves, but he didn't capture Bilbo, who was wearing a magic ring at the time which made him invisible. How he came by this ring is a whole story in itself 
Be excellent to each other and party on dude!
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My lore of Elves is limited (I posted on another thread about how confusing the Sil is if you're not taking notes) but I would venture that Galadriel was the most senior of the Elves left in ME. She's a Noldor (I think Elrond is too?), and I'd put her above the other leaders as she is a daughter of Feanor, the once High King of the Elves.
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Cirdan is the oldest Elf in the ME. But that doesn't means that he is the King of all the elves.
I'm a little bit confused about who is a Noldor, Avari, Teleri, Sindar(theese are Tereli too). I'm only sure that Galadriel is 100% Noldor
Can anyone help me?
If you play with the best, Die like the rest...
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Excellent link, Tarlonniel; here is what I learned:
Galadriel is a Noldor but not a daughter of Feanor - she is his niece. Her father is Finarfin, a half-brother of Feanor (Finwe is the father of both).
Of the Elves mentioned so far, Galadriel is the only one that is completely of Noldor descent.
Elrond would be next, as he is half Noldor and half Sindarin. The fact that both of his parents have human lineage would also compromise his claim to be the Chief Elf of ME (so I would venture, just my speculation on that point).
Cirdan is a Teleri Elf - a house I think of as pretty non-political.
Tharanduil is a Sindar, subordinate to the Noldor.
My arguements thus far are based on the Noldor being the highest house of the Elves. Actually the Vanyar are reckoned the highest, and it is unclear how the Teleri fit in. But in the case of Cirdan, although a Teleri, he didn't make the journey to Aman (and see the light of the Two Trees) and thus would be "less" than one who had seen it (e.g. Galadriel).
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CTS-1
(Tue Jun 3 08:10:21)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 08:16:18 |
Minor correction:
Galadriel is not a full-blooded Noldor; her mother was a Teleri light-elf.
That is why Galadriel and her brothers were welcome in Doriath when the rest of the exiled Noldor were not.
Edit: and I almost forgot. Her father's mother was a Vanyar light-elf.
Look- he's trying to think!
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CTS-1
(Tue Jun 3 08:04:22)
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Elrond generally associated himself with Noldor, but his true genaeology is a mess. His ancestors include Noldor, Sindar, Maia, and men from two of the three houses of the Edain.
Look- he's trying to think!
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The_Ring
(Tue Jun 3 08:20:01)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 08:22:38 |
Sindar are count as Tereli and I don't think they are subordinate of the Noldor
If you play with the best, Die like the rest...
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CTS-1
(Tue Jun 3 15:34:24)
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The Sindar were not subordinate to the Noldor (and many would have found the idea repugnant), but they were considered less "noble" in the hierarchy of nobility, which ran, as I recall:
Vanyar
Noldor
Telari (who made it to Aman)
Sindar
Nandor
Avari
Look- he's trying to think!
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Pixii
(Tue Jun 3 15:42:06)
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Having followed the above link, i have since out found out that:
Legolas means Greenleaf.
So his name should be Greenleaf Greenleaf...?! Lol
Dude, you have a bazooka. Stop thinkin Prague Police and start thinkin Playstation.
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I think he would work better as Greenleaf Legolas, or Legolas Legolas...or even Greenleaf, Thranduilsson of Greenwood the Great.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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The way I understood it, Elves do not have last names. The ones who do were given them by Men. Elrond Halfelven because of his lineage for example. For Legolas they just translated his Elven name. It's not a true surname as we uderstand it.
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Elrond: 3/8 Man, 5/16 Sinda, 7/32 Noldo, 1/16 Maia, 1/32 Vanya
Galadriel: 1/2 Teler, 1/4 Noldo, 1/4 Vanya
Círdan: Teler
Thranduil: Sinda
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Galadriel's mother was a Vanyar. I think that Elrond is considered the most powerful Elf-lord because of his relationship with Gil-galad. He was Gil-galad herald and would have been his heir if he did not start Rivendell with the survivors of Eregion. Even though Galadriel is older and herfather is High King of Noldor in Valinor, she is a woman so she could never govern by herself. When have you ever heard of a High Queen of the Noldor. If the King did not have a male heir it went to his next male relative.
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Galadriel's mother was Eärwen, a Teleri-elf of Alqualondë and Olwë's daughter.
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Galadriel is the most powerful, but whether the Elves needed a king or not, is something I never really studied. Although, Melian did rule Doriath for sometime after the death of Thingol. I think the fact that Elves are immortal make it difficult for a female elf to become a queen without having a male at her side, in which case, the general patriarchal rules of our thinking were applied. A king has more power than a queen.
Actually, I don't know if I should say most powerful. Galadriel is definitely the eldest Elf in ME, but power is a subtle thing in the world of ME that to define it is impossible. Elrond is from a gene pool containing some of the most powerful people in ME. All the way from Melian and Thingol, to Tuor and Celebrimbol. The fact that he has the blood of Luthien in him is saying a lot. But Tolkien does put a lot of emphasis on nobility and age in conjunction with power. Galadriel would be the senior ranking Noldor left in ME, and she is far older than Elrond.
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And who wouldn't want a queen like Galadriel when the alternative is an uptight Elrond?
I must wield the cleaver, it's most annoying.
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In the books I always found Elrond to be just an encyclopedia. Not extremely interesting, but there if you ever need him. He looked after the welfare of Elves and Men, and all the free peoples of ME. The movie portrayed Elrond as an intolerable, hate-mongering Elf who disliked most everyone who was not Elven. Even Aragorn, who was related to Elrond, was treated with scorn by Elrond. I wasn't too impressed by the portrayal of Elrond in the movie, but someone had to say what he did in movie.
Glorgfindel is another Elf that hasn't been brought up. He was quite powerful, too. But I forget where he fits in the geneology of the Noldor.
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CTS-1
(Tue Jun 3 21:11:47)
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Glorfindel's ancestry isn't brought up much, just the "first and third age Glorfindel" issue. PM me if you don't know it; otherwise, I don't want to rehash it.
Look- he's trying to think!
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CTS-1
(Tue Jun 3 15:36:27)
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| UPDATED Tue Jun 3 15:36:44 |
The way I read The Silmarillion, Melian left fairly quickly after Thingol's death. She essentially wrapped up some matters, had a long talk with Mablung, and left. That enabled Dior to rule Doriath, although a reduced one without Melian's power.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Although, Melian did rule Doriath for sometime after the death of Thingol. I think the fact that Elves are immortal make it difficult for a female elf to become a queen
It should also be noted that although Melian served as queen in Doriath, she was not an Elf, but a Maia.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I should have known better than to meddle in the affairs of Elf geneology...
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You should have. Nobility can get touchy of their family tree.
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Anybody who thinks that Elves are kind, benevolent decent people hasn't read The Silmarilion properly (if at all). Excellent passages on various atrocities they have comitted against other Elves, as well as every other race they came across.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
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I agree. When I first read "The Sil" and I read about Feänor, I had a hard time convincing myself that this guy was really an Elf.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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He's a great example. You tend to hear about how great a warrior he was, and how wise and skilled he was (making the Simlmarils, etc...) but unless you read the Silmarillion you'll have no perception of what a bad'un he was! If he existed in the modern world, he'd be considered a terrorist (or maybe a cult leader - either way, Bush would bomb him).
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
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He was just a baaaad apple. I couldn't get used to the fact that he was an Elf... so unlike the wise, noble, dignified Elves we know in LotR.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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I don't think that feänor was so bad. I only think he was more..."human" than the other elves. He was a real lider. I liked the way he died. He is my favorite character beside his brother Fingolfin.
And his name is soo cool FEÄNOR
If you play with the best, Die like the rest...
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Well... yeah. But see, for an Elf to be more "humanlike" is bad... hope I don't sound bigoted.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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That is a difficult statement. Elves were, for the most part, good. But, there are always exceptions. And all Elves were "good" at one time. Even Feanor, who is probably one of the "baddest" elves in the Simarillion was never intentionally evil. The lies of Melkor definitely helped in creating a lot of aggression that became very mis-directed. I often viewed Feanor like Turin: Cursed by Melkor and fate. And, although Feanor started many atrocities, his actions did make the world a better place. There is one part in the Simarillion which discusses this. It says something to the effect of: Although the Elves do not look at all the things that transpired from Feanor with happiness, there were many things of beauty that came from his decision to leave Valinor and if it had not happened the Elven history would be dimished. Some of his sons I view in a much worse light than Feanor. At least from Feanor came great things, but some of his sons were just plain wrong in many occasions.
Elves are generally those kind, benevolent decent people that we think of. The few that caused so many problems shouldn't be the ones who stereotype the rest. Just like when we think about the Middle East. What is the first thing that comes to your mind? Terrorists? War? What is the first thing that comes to your mind about the US? Pompus morons? War-mongers? Are these really how the bulk of the people are? No. Most people in the Middle East are exceptionally nice and just want to go about there business. Most Americans aren't pompus morons (although sometimes it may seem that way), and most detest the idea of war. So because a few Elves, thousands of years ago, did things that were "evil", they shouldn't be thought of as a nice people? Its good to know that Elves are capable of screwing up just like Men are because if they were too "good", they'd be boring.
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