If the Elves existed in our World today considering the nature of world events and our checkered past. And with our demonstrated capacity to not learn from history. Would they advise us, or consider us a lost cause?
And is this an interesting crucible in consideration of LOTR. And the struggle to help those that are following in the hopeless footsteps of past.
A few moments of thought! and I wonder what you think?
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I asked this question myself a while back, albeit in a different form.
I think it is like what I call the X-Men syndrome. Some Men will learn willingly from the Elves and try to teach other Men what they have learned. Some Men will abandon their fellows and go join the Elves. Some Men will try to kill the Elves. Nobody reacts in quite the same way as another.
--mentalcritic
"Ash nazg durbatulūk!"
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Very interesting observation! mentalcritic...
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I think Mental Critic is right when he says; "Some Men will learn willingly from the Elves and try to teach other Men what they have learned. Some Men will abandon their fellows and go join the Elves. Some Men will try to kill the Elves."
I count myself in the group that would abandon Mortal Men for the company of elves anyday.
http://members.fortunecity.com/tolkienlovers The IMDb Ringnuts website
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jon-334
(Sat May 3 20:16:21)
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 UPDATED Sat May 3 20:16:59 |
They would not be strangers to fighting for a lost cause if they did perceive us as that. Their struggle with Morgoth got pretty hopeless at some points but they carried on because there were moments of light in the midst of the darkness. They would find these minute stars even in our world.
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Their struggle with Morgoth got pretty hopeless at some points but they carried on because there were moments of light in the midst of the darkness. They would find these minute stars even in our world.
beautiful poetic thought jon!...
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Which makes them far more forgiving than I am, really. I'd want to tear down the palaces and put up forests, with a nice big tower in the middle for various purposes.
I suspect that human motivations and Elf motivations, at least in some cases, are not that far apart. Many of us carry on in utter darkness despite the fact that we know we will die before we see any real results, bad or no.
--mentalcritic
"Ash nazg durbatulūk!"
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I don't think that they would give up on us. I am not sure how far they'd get; we are pretty dense. But I don't think that they'd give up.
I have always wondered why Tolkien felt they had to go. Their time is at an end, I know that, but why? (Okay, yes I know that Middle Earth is not real . But I look at the books as sort of Tolkien's view of the development of good and evil.) He spent a great deal of time and thought on the elves and their lives and history. I am not sure what he was saying when he has them leave this world to us.
It is always such a hopeless end when I read it. Was there something that humans were supposed to learn or do without them? Did the fact that humans were on the rise create such a hopeless cause that the elves should not have to go through that? But they still have to come back in the end and help clean up the mess anyway?
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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I have always wondered why Tolkien felt they had to go. Their time is at an end, I know that, but why?
The end for the Elves it seems came when we no longer talk amongst ourselves. For the Elves it could be said that it is the end of genuine thinking and the beginning of the final loneliness.
The remarkable thing is that the cessation of the inner dialogue within humans marks also the end of our concern with the world around us. It is as if we noted the world and think about it only when we have to report it to ourselves. So the Elves need enormous reserves of strength to continue caring!
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CTS-1
(Sat May 3 23:52:00)
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Have you ever read any Carlos Castaneda? He was of the opinion that the ability to, at will, cease one's internal dialouge was a necessary precondition to the proper understanding of mystical wisdom.
Look- he's trying to think on peyote!
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No I haven't read him CTS, but it sure sounds interesting! 
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Yes, it makes sense to me because with no inner dialogue there is not personal responsibility. It is not my fault (because you will not hold yourself accountable), it is someone else's fault. Or even better- I can't do anything about it (because you have no idea anymore what you truly are capable of).
Are you saying that the elves represented our "inner self" in some way? Our inner wisdom or abilities and we are responsible for turning that off? I will have to think about that during training today (it's K9 first aid and I think I got that down ). I think I like that! But I think it makes it even more sad now.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
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sinaes
(Sat May 3 22:16:54)
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I think they would have left to the grey havens a long time ago.
There's not too many forests left. Concurrently, there's not much tolerance left in humans for nature and too much destructive impulses in general.
I don't think they'd consider us lost. But I doubt they'd want to live in our world.
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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I don't think they'd consider us lost. But I doubt they'd want to live in our world.
Sad but so true.. It's seems strange to say, but there is always hope, "hope with out guaranties! for the Elves!"
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i think that being immortals gives them the chance to see by themselves what happens when we dont remember history, and let it repeat itself, they probably learned this the hard way. Because of this, i think that they would try to advice us, to help us to avoid making these mistakes, but as we already know, sometimes the only way to learn is by making the mistakes ourselves, the humans are really good at this, not listening to the good advices and going ahead no matter what happens.
I think that this would discourage the elves to give us more advice. I see it like some kind of Parent-children relationship, they would care about us, they would try to help us, but sometimes we just have to see it for ourselves, so they have to let us go.
I dont think we would reject them, but maybe we could fear them, yet another reason to ignore their advice.
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
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I think that this would discourage the elves to give us more advice. I see it like some kind of Parent-children relationship, they would care about us, they would try to help us, but sometimes we just have to see it for ourselves, so they have to let us go.
For humans the short-lived self, teetering on the edge of extinction, is the only thing that seems to ever really matter. Which reveals our desperation to the Elves. Franz Kafka once said "The meaning of life is that it stops." I think the Elves would think this is a most profound statement!
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"The meaning of life is that it stops." I think the Elves would think this is a most profound statement!
I don't know, the image that i have from the elves is that they're very wise, they've seen many things, but they seem to have big difficulties to understand death, because most of them won't ever see it from a closer point of view, and when they see it, they seem devastated. Personally, i don't think that the Elves really understand mortality, maybe the elves that have been through wars, or that are used to be around men, but not all of them.
Now, i even confused myself, because if the elves don't understand mortality, then there's no particular reason for them to try to advice the humans about the mistakes the elves have made through history. But probably the ones giving the advice are the ones that made the mistakes themselves, or someone who was there at the moment, so they would have to understand something about mortality.
Ok, so after explaining myself, and you (which probably was not necesary) this idea, i would have to say that i think i agree with you, in the idea that because of mortality itself, some elves would try to help the humans to avoid the same mistakes they've made before, but as a part of growing up, the humans sometimes have to do the things for themselves.
sorry about all the twists and turns, and i hope all this babbling is not as confusing as it looks!!
This time, we didn't forget the gravy!
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CTS-1
(Sun May 4 00:07:05)
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Would their immortality function as an impediment to their action on this point? After all, your question implies at least the possibility of a linear, progressive flow of history if everything is done right. At least the possibility exists for a never-ending upward progression (in many ways, a very nineteenth-century view of the unfolding of history, at least if you take Nietzche out of the equation).
How would the Elves' immortality affect their philosophy of history? They didn't always learn from their own history (see, generally, Celebrimbor's life and death; Turgon's hubris in the face of the inevitability of Gondolin's doom). If anything, their difference in attitudes would be due to more personal experience, and eventually, the previously discussed issues of eternal recurrence (also described as a lack of access to Nietzche's critical history). Such issues may create a psychological barrier to activity after some time.
What I think is of even more significance is that your question tends to imply an Elvish acceptance of a linear, upward progression of history. Let's face it- the Elves never had that. They lost Paradise, they lost Belariand. If the Elves were to consider human history as proof of a lost cause, how would that reflect on a judgment of their own history?
Look- he's trying to think!
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What I think is of even more significance is that your question tends to imply an Elvish acceptance of a linear, upward progression of history. Let's face it- the Elves never had that. They lost Paradise, they lost Belariand. If the Elves were to consider human history as proof of a lost cause, how would that reflect on a judgment of their own history?
A great question as usual CTS, but I got to go for now its 3:30 in the morning.
Great talking with you all. I'll be back tomorrow.
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A very interesting question... I sometimes despair at the way we are in the world today, the way that we never seem to learn from our mistakes, the wars, the pollution, the unnecessary suffering but I also realise that with humans the people who will in all probability suffer most for our mistakes will be our Children and our Childrens Children. I think that is sometimes why we have a habit of not learning from our past as quite often although we know our history and the mistakes made previously we rather naively think that we are more advanced and wont make the same mistakes even as we are in truth making them and I think that this would eventually force the Elves to abandon us and our world to our fate, after all could you imagine yourself being immortal and forced to watch the same mistakes under a different cloak time and again despite the best advice that you can give... I have to imagine that it would be unbearably painful to have to do that and though it may cause sorrow for the elves to leave Humans perhaps better the short sharp thrust of the pain of parting is better for them than the long interminable pain of watching us cause decay and death to ourselves and the planet. So ultimately although I think they would endeavour to do there best for a while I think eventually they would admit defeat and consider us a lost cause.
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense but it's just my thrupence on the matter
Many wonder why? Unfortunately when they get the answer they dont always listen
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What you raise is a good question, as always, Paul. Notwithstanding their less-desirable traits, I think Elves possess a great deal of wisdom; and for a reason. They have lived through the ages, and have watched societies progress or collapse in the process. It is therefore within their capacity to offer advice to those who need it. But I don't think that is their only purpose; their time comes to an end, and it is up to humans to function on their own. I therefore see Elves as guiding us in the right direction, helping us when we stumble, but letting us walk on our own.
So in all, I don't believe they would consider us a lost cause. They will offer their advice, and hope that at least a few will absorb it, and carry on that wisdom to future generations. It reminds of me Aragorn, on whom the Elves had great influence. He will most likely use what he learnt from the Elves as a guiding light for his people. Not everyone may learn from history, but there's hope that a few will.
Or maybe I'm just an optimist 
How beautiful it is to do nothing and then rest afterwards.
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Well, Paul, just look at how the Elves acted in the LOTR books (not the movie)... basically they had already given up on mankind then, and resigned themselves to the fact that their time in Middle-Earth had come and gone! They either lived retreated in some magic kingdom, protected by invisible barriers, or they had left for Aman altogether.
So there can be little doubt that the Elves, were they to appear on Earth as it is now, would either leave for Aman so fast they would leave skidmarks, or they would hide in the deepest valley in the Himalayas or on New Guinea hoping not to be discovered by us. I think we're beyond teaching as far as the Elves are concerned. A lost cause indeed.
But maybe I am being too cynical here... (then again, maybe not!)
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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I totally agree with Wajz, that was almost exactly what I was going to say when I read the original post.
"just look at how the Elves acted in the LOTR books (not the movie)... basically they had already given up on mankind then, and resigned themselves to the fact that their time in Middle-Earth had come and gone!"
They were distant from men, they didn't really advise them or feel akin to them anymore in ME. Their time was over so they basically didn't care about the fate of men or middle earth (for the most part). I think since they have no ties to us they would see how we live and quickly retreat to where they came form. I don't think they would feel they should advise us because we are nothing to them and this is not their world. We are none of their concern.
"Stuck on mountain with Hobbits. Boromir really annoying. Not King yet."
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If the elves existed here today, I assume they would always have been here, if this is the case and they are still here and we are also, therefore it seems logical. Humans we must have learned to peacefully co-exist. In time we would have learned much from them and would be more peacable. The world would be a far better place.
On the other hand if elves appeared to our world as it is, through some magical portal, I believe they would turn heel, say bugger this, these people are far too messed up, and go back whence they came
Handses?...Knife?...String or nothing!!
Handses?...Knife?...String or nothing!!
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In spite of my protestations that I wish to be taken with them? 
--mentalcritic
"Ash nazg durbatulūk!"
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As Wajz said, they would leave immediately. If they were unable to leave, they would find themselves a nice hidden valley somewhere, where men seldom tred.
I still prefer the answer I gave in mentalcritic's thread last week though - once they encountered us they would all immediately die of grief and sadness at the state we have our world and they way we treat each other.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
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I like that response, too, but it brings a big question to my mind. Would they still do that if they knew that there are people like my good self who are as sick of the world we live in as they would be? Or would they try to get up and show the human race as a whole that there is a better way? In my near-suicidal anger at the way I am constantly being treated of late, I am so hoping for the last option I could just explode.
--mentalcritic
"Ash nazg durbatulūk!"
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How would they advise us? They are immortals who live to preserve the world in an unchanging state; we are mortals who live for change. Our lives and attitudes would be incomprehensible to them, I think, and theirs to us. To become more like them would be to deny our basic nature, our thirst for innovation, our pioneering spirit.
The elves are just as guilty of "not learning from history" as us. The elves in the Silmarillion are torn apart by pride, greed, anger and envy. And the passivity of the elves in LOTR, though they are the race that would understand the threat of the Ring more than any other, demonstrates their lack of concern for the fate of a world no longer under their power.
The fates of other races have never seemed to be important to the elves. If they existed in the world today, I suspect they would build themselves a hidden city, like Gondolin, and remain aloof from mortal affairs.
Not all those who wander are lost
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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| by -
athene-5
2 days ago (Thu Jul 17 20:20:49)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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