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Broc
(Wed Apr 30 07:41:56)
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Exactly why does PJ decide to include the Elves at Helm's Deep?
And, eliminate the Huorns?
We may be able to answer question No. 1 when we see ROTK -- I suspect there will be a few unexpected answers therein.
And, I've heard rumors that the Huorns will appear in TTT EE... Really?
OK -- I'm not going to expound on this one. Instead, I'll sit back for a few hours and see who has the answers.
A Wise Old Owl sat on an oak.
The more he saw, the less he spoke.
The less he spoke, the more he heard.
Now -- whay can't we be like that Wise Old Bird?
[Yeah, I know--that doesn't have anything to do with anything]
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Al_C
(Wed Apr 30 07:52:06)
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I would think that the elves were there to show that they were also doing something to fight the evil in the world rather than hiding away doing nothing. Huorns were taken out because they would have had to be explained by Treebeard and between the Huorn scenes and explanation of them, Pj probably felt the time alotted was better spent on other things. TTT EE will have time for such things, probably giving better explanation for both. The official site says 35 more minutes on the film.
...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
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Broc
(Wed Apr 30 07:57:17)
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Thanks for responding--I thought I was Home Alone!
Suggestion -- hypothesis [Wow, what a fancy word!]:
PJ is attempting to creat another Grand Alliance, especially since not even the "casual readers" have a clue that as Frodo climbs Mt. Doom battles are ranging from Dale to Lorien, and that all Middle Earth is assailed.
Other ideas --
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Al_C
(Wed Apr 30 08:10:09)
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More or less I would say. I think it does represent those battles as well as show repentance on Elrond's part for having faith in men re: his FotR speech. Wish I was home alone. Just forgotten at work as usual.
...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
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Actually, in one scene where Treebeard is taking Merry and Pippin around (The "Gandalf told me to keep you safe...") he talks about the huorns.
 Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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eeeerrr hi broc 
i never really managed to find a good reason for all those changes, but i guess i'm not able to think from a director's point of view.
ok, i'll give it a shot.
huorns have similar appearance as ents ... so when you want to introduce tolikien to someone that's never heard of him before, it's not a good idea to waste time on 'some bunch of wild trees' when you can use that time for a real heavy battle. and it's apparent that you need some superior creatures to take part in it, and bring a wave of hope to people that are constantly sinking in despair because of thier inevitable defeat and destruction of their kin.
you know, i like to believe that nature stood against the orcs and saruman. that ea itself has defeated 10000 orc army, sending huorns to help people of rohan. the problem with the average moviegoers is that they don't want such crap. what they want is bloody battle, tons of dead and fast and furious action.
i don't understand that need. so maybe that's the main reason why i do not agree with those changes pj and co made ...
eerrr did i make any sense? 
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*Spoiler*
In the novels, the Elves of Lothlorien and Mirkwood battle forces from Dol Guldur while Minas Tirith is being besieged. I suspect that PJ had the Elves come to Helm's Deep in substitution for those northern battles.
I have often heard it said that the Elves coming to Helm's Deep flies in the face of Prof. Tolkien's theme of the Elves fading, but the people that make that argument never address the Battles of the North. These battles were not simply defensive battles forced on the Elves either. After forces of Sauron are repulsed at both Lorien and Mirkwood, Celeborn and Thranduil attack Dol Guldur and destroy it. The Elves take a proactive approach to the war against Mordor.
Rather than use time to show these side battles, I believe that PJ just put the Elves into the thick of things to reflect their contributions.
There is also a theme of "unity of the free peoples" that PJ seems to want to show. Perhaps the arrival is supposed to represent a sign of solidarity among the free peoples.
Also, to the movie going public, the Elves would be a conundrum. How can you sympathize with a people that do not take action during the darkest hour of ME? If it is true, as some argue, that the Elves form the center of Prof. Tolkien's work (they are the stars, if you will), then, it is important that PJ give them more of the center stage to reflect that aspect of Prof. Tolkien's writing.
last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth...
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yes, but there is another major thing that tolkien was crystal clear about.
elves do not trust people. over the ages that gap between men and elves became so wide and deep that it was perfectly reasonable why elves did not take part in helm's deep. that fact/thing/something was overlooked by pj...
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Darth_Imrahil
(Wed Apr 30 08:25:08)
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It may be reasonable, but what is more reasonable? Fighting along someone you don't trust or allowing the world to plunge into darkness because of pride.
The Elves are not sure if they can trust men, but they know for a fact they can't trust Sauron.
Another thing about the way PJ has worked the story -- just how much does Galadriel and Elrond foresee and how much does that play into the decisions they make.
It is said that war makes for strange bedfellows.
last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth...
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zoolooffs
(Wed Apr 30 08:38:54)
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i liked scenes with galadriel and elrond
it's the part of ttt that maybe i liked the most. it proved to me that pj did really hard thinking writing the script. considering book adaptations on film, usually the best parts are the scenes done reading between the lines, imagination at work. i saw something similar in tarkovsky's solaris.
but, when it comes to war and alliances, some strange acts are done, very often. sauron is a global enemy and that's okay, and the only sane thing would be to forget old misunderstandings between men and elves, but in wars that took place in our world, decisions like that were made too often. i think that war experience that tolkien had, left deep influence on him.
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Good to see you back, Zoolooffs!
last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth...
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i saw yesterday all of your b-day wishes
and i felt like home ...
so here i am
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mowen
(Wed Apr 30 08:31:38)
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I guess its just a device to make the film more comprehensible. To the uninitiated, it is baffling that while Sauron is about to rape middle earth, the elves sit there doing bugger all or fleeing to the West. It's like they are so elevated as corporeal beings that they shouldn't intervene. I always empathised with Boromir, "By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe".
I think PJ wanted to redress that "otherworldliness" and offer us an enlightened elven race that was prepared to get is hands dirty. While it makes sense in the books, the film doesn't have the luxury of time to build up the history underpinning the story.
Personally I think it confuses matter slightly. Why would the elves just send a few hundred archers? If they had decided to intervene why not commit a force that had a chance of survival?
It does however add some really good moments to the film. Not just artistically but substantially. The scene after haldir dies and we see around him piles of dead elves, highlights the brutality and reckless hate of the uruks.
On balance I don't mind it too much and it helps to explain how they held out till dawn.
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It does however add some really good moments to the film. Not just artistically but substantially. The scene after haldir dies and we see around him piles of dead elves, highlights the brutality and reckless hate of the uruks.
Another thing this does is create a "tragic" moment. Obviously, there is not time to go into metaphysics and the nature of the afterlife in detail in these films. Now look at the issue of the Elven deaths at Helm's Deep:
Film goers are aware that Elves are immortal and are in a ongoing process to leave Middle Earth to go to a type of paradise. How sad is it for the Elves at Helm's Deep that they die on the "eve" of their leaving for paradise. They sacrifice eternity for the people of Rohan. Obviously, this is not completely true, but look at it from an uninitiated film-goers point of view. It is quite moving.
last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth...
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Broc
(Wed Apr 30 14:07:19)
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Thanks for your Boromir reference.
I hadn't equated that with the Elf perspectives on this thread, but it sure resonates!
~ Broc
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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The fact that elves did fight Sauron in other places and were not impartioal to troubles of Middle Earth and that had to be reflected somehow has been already mentioned.
There was some help to Rohirrim in the book, Elrond's sons and some rangers from the North were fighting at Helm's Deep. It would have taken long to explain who are rangers of the north and why are they coming to helms deep. Anyway, changes undertaken by PJ are necessary for transferring book to screen, Prof probably would have disapproved, but melted upon learning how many people turned to books and admired them.
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Broc
(Wed Apr 30 14:08:22)
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Excellent points!
Vielen Dank!
~ B
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Actually, the sons of Elrond and the Rangers do not participate in the battle of Helm's Deep in the books. They do not appear until ROTK, after Helm's Deep and after Gandalf & Co. have confronted Saruman at Isengard.
I still have some small hopes that we will get to see the sons of Elrond and the Rangers arriving in ROTK to convince Aragorn to take the Paths of the Dead...otherwise who is going to go with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli on the Paths? A bunch of the Rohirrim? I'd say that any surviving Lorien elves that came with Haldir could go instead...but it sure didn't look like any of them made it through Helm's Deep...
Jim
"Where did you come by the weed, you villains?"
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I'll have to check Helms Deep chapter, I was under strong impression that there was some help indeed.
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Go ahead and check it...but I'm right... . The sons of Elrond and the Rangers arrive in 'The Passing of the Grey Company' which is the second chapter of book V.
Jim
"Where did you come by the weed, you villains?"
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Oh, I was doubting my memory, not yours.
Running to the bookshelf...
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I think the Rangers have a chance of showing up...but I doubt the twins will.  If any Elves beside Legolas go with Aragorn it'll probably be Arwen...
I fear not the shadows of Men
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Why were the Elves at Helms Deep? So we could see more Haldir!
No seriously. I think part of the answer lies in P.J. need to kill someone off to should the pain of war. Someone we cared about had to die. So it was Haldir. Also I thi8nk it may be to show the evles being more united, this probibly means Elrond's son won't be in ROTK.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.I do not think they will sing to me.
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Broc
(Thu May 1 09:03:12)
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If Haldir were a German Elf, would you say to him:
"I vould laik to Hald Dir!"
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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LOL! Thanks great I needed a good laugh.
But my High school German was far to long ago!
would hald be Dump? or the english HOLD?
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.I do not think they will sing to me.
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Elves ~ to make Rohan's victory seem more plausible, and to give the Elves something to do besides stand around and sing
Huorns ~ I agree with what Aule said.
Wise Old Bird ~ very clever! Who wrote it, you or someone else?
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Broc
(Thu May 1 12:44:34)
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Wise Old Owl --
Old, old, public domain poem
As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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You are what you love...not what loves you.
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Buuuuuuuuuuuuump!!!
  if you hate Tom Hardy
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Bump!
Fernie
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