Strangely enough, on this board I haven't heard many discussions regarding the adaption of the Battle of Helm`s Deep, curious because it is possibly the part of the books that was most altered on film (Although Window on the West is, at the very least, a close second)
The entire mood of the battle was changed.In the books most of the Rohirrim were somewhat worried (Particularly Gamling), but Legolas and Gimli were very sure of victory, for they had utmost faith in Aragorn`s leadership.Aragorn, on the other hand was at a stage where he would have to act as a King of Men...and was possibly quite unnerved by this (As in early chapters it is shown Aragorn has very little confidence in himself as a leader)This was countered by Eomer, who believed Aragorn to be the key for the Rohirrim`s victory.
In the movie, PJ had to go overkill, and give the Rohirrim 300 men.300.That's less than half the number of students in my high school!Legolas, Gimli, Aragorn, and Theoden all seem certain that they will all die and the war will be lost.Eomer is not there at all.Luckily some 200 elven archers show up, and Aragorn decides to completely ignore the Rohirrim, and fight with his elf-buddies.Hmmmmmmm, quite a different scenario.
Furthermore, the structure of the battle changed completely.
IN THE BOOK
1.Rohirrim held Helm's Dike against the first waves of Uruks
2.The Uruks tried swarming the Deeping Wall with ladders, with little success
3.The Dunlendings batter Helm's Gate, but are driven back by Aragorn and Eomer
4.The Uruks burrow through the drain and launch a surprise attack against the Rohirrim from behind while more ladders are risen.Gimli and Gamling fight them off and block the drain
5.The Fire of Isengard blasts the drain open into a hole, and send troops in through the hole with yet more ladders are launched.The Rohirrim retreat to the Caves and the Hornburg.Eomer and Gimli are missing, presumed dead.
6.The Uruks ruthlessly assault the Hornburg and the caves, as a result the defense are weary and decimated.
7.Theoden bids men sound Helm's Horn, and rides out as the Fire of Isengard blasts the gates open and Hama dies at the gate's last defense.
WHILE IN THE MOVIE...
1.The Uruks show their enter in the Eurovision Song Contest before a jittery guy shoots them accidentally.The Uruks charge, and Aragorn orders the Elves "Wait until you see the whites of their eyes!"
2.The Uruks easily scale the wall, and there is a massive melee on the battle ments that continues for the whole battle
3.The Uruks (The Dunlendings don`t show up..they were clearly introduced for nothing) batter the gate, and the Rohirrim throw themselves against the Gate.No one is too worried at the moment.
4.The Fire of Isengard blasts the Deeping Wall into smithereens, and kills as many orcs as it does elves.There is another huge melee between the Elves and the Uruks
5.Haldir dies  during the evacuation.Aragorn goes crazy and jumps off the side of the wall into the Uruk swarm...and reappears by unknown means unharmed.
6.The Uruks actually to the Gate some damage.Fortuantly Aragorn knows the location of the Secret Door (And no Rohirrim do... ) so he and Gimli can kill the hundreds of Uruks with ease...and are left by Theoden to die.
7.The Hornburg is taken, and all surviving Rohirrim retreat to the throne room.
8.Theoden is suicidal, until Aragorn gives him the idea of riding out, and Gimli goes and rings Helm`s Horn when no one asked him to.
Alright, I've been a bit harsh, but the differences are plain to see.
Do you think the changes to the mood, structure, and pace of Helm`s Deep are justified?Why, why not?
 Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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Cozza
(Fri Jun 20 04:57:10)
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Well I liked the movie battle but thought it ended too abruptly. No it isn't the same as the book but it is still pretty good despite that.
The secret door didn't look that secret to me, I'm sure just about anyone could have found it, but a man and a dwarf taking on all comers like that? well you have to suspend your belief a bit when you watch any action movie.
When the gate to the Hornburg was strengthened, Theoden told Aragorn and Gimli to "get out of there"
and then when the Uruks break through; "Pull everybody back. Pull them back. They have broken through, retreat! Retreat!"
So I didn't think Theoden left Aragorn and Gimli to die he was just too busy trying to manage the situation.
When the Rhohirrim retreated to the throne room, I got the impression that there was hardly anyone left alive, but that's probably because many would have retreated to the caves and others were probably fighting elsewhere.
We never saw Theoden tell Gimli about the Horn but thats probably because the scene was cut to fit the 3 hours rqd for the theatrical.
Things moved on very quickly after the deeping wall was breached and the Hornburg was very quickly taken after that. Then they rode out and Eomer attacked and the battle was over very suddenly (a bit too suddenly in my opinion). However, I think there will be a lot more of the battle on the EE and that should serve to flesh things out a bit.
Have Faith
Speak friend and enter
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Yeah, hopefully things will be better in the EE.I just found a lot of the changes odd...and a bit disappointing.
I, for one, would really have liked to have seen Eomer and Aragorn fighting side-by-side...simply because Karl Urban is WAY too cool!
Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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Yes! I think the Aragorn and Gimli thing was a nod to the scene with Aragorn and Eomer in the book. One of my biggest regrets about Eomer being banished (I didn't care about meeting Erkenbrand) was taking him out of HD, and no scene of him and Aragorn cracking orc skulls. The part about him getting tripped by two orcs who were playing dead, and then Gimli jumps up, unnoticed by anyone, and, and decapitates them...I don't know if condensing Erkenbrand was worth losing that scene.
I would snare not even an orc with a falsehood. 
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"8.Theoden is suicidal, until Aragorn gives him the idea of riding out, and Gimli goes and rings Helm`s Horn when no one asked him to."
Not quite.
Theoden: "The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep. One last time!"
Gimli: "YES!!!!"
"Gather ye rosebuds while ye may"
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Well, yeah, I guess Gimli was just after something to do since he was really bad on horseback.
Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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Great post, MacDog! 
Sure the book and movie versions of Helm's Deep were quite different but I still think both were amazing bits.
And Gimli rocked in both, so I'm overall happy with it. 
I know lots of things, but almost all of them are pretty useless! 
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Very good post!!!
With these films its hard enough just to keep myself in the film and not think “ohh, that’s not in the books” or on the flip side “why isn’t this bit added.” I have loved both films so far, but I see a lot of your points. MY way of dealing with it at times is just to imaging it happening off screen. Its hard to deal with some characters being cut down. Really hard for me because I think Marry and Pippin have kind of been chopped up a good deal. I love the actors portrays but because of time concerns I don’t think there development as careless hobbits into heroes can be completely portrayed.
Anyway. Putting aside the fact that they are there. Something that I never understood was the fact that there isn’t a single frame of the elves’ fate after Haldir is killed (WHY!!!! Boo hoo). The elves and men are never really shown fighting side by side. It’s kind of strange.
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A good point.I think the Elves were meant to be holding off the stairs that went from the Deep into the Hornburg, but I really don't know...
Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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your right i guess. It just seems crazy that not one of them appear in the caves, before the main charecters charge out. if they all dies fighting to save the men and women of Rohan it should have been mentioned in the aftermath i think.
and another thing. There was a great empathies on the young men having to fight. I wish there had been a follow up. We never know if that kid that Aragon talks to survives (a great part of the movie!!). Maybe it will be in the EE of Two Towers.
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Yeah, there's lots of reasons to look forward to the EE...
Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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My main problem with the battle of Helm's Deep is this--wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to send grown women into the battle rather than eleven year old prepubscent scrawly little boys? The people of Rohan lived mostly in little villages or outlying farms--the women would have done hard work, as they are at war a lot are probably widows and so would have done the hard work around the farm--as well as hunting, I'm sure that most women would have known how to use a bow and arrow or some kind of weapon. So why send out these boys rather than the women--especially when "the women of Rohan learned long ago that those without swords can still die upon them." It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that a)Tolkien talks about shieldmaidens like they are a common occurrence, but Eowyn is the only one mentioned. And she isn't allowed to go out and fight and has to disguise herself as a man to do so and b)Even if Eowyn is the only one mentioned, it would have been such an inspired choice for Jackson to show a few shieldmaidens out there fighting rather than all the women cowering in the caves.
First thing to do when being stalked by an angry mob with raspberries is to release a tiger
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wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to send grown women into the battle rather than eleven year old prepubscent scrawly little boys?
I think it has been discussed somewhere before, and the reason that was given for that was that women were needed alive so that more children would be born to replace eventually the ones that were lost. Children were, however cruel that sounds, expendable in time of warfare, especially young boys. Some people here mentioned also how children would be used in war and how PJ follows accurately that aspect of the situation...
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! 
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Well, that may be true that children were used in war. I think Jackson may have picked some smaller boys on purpose to make it more poignant, but come one, what could those kids do against an Uruk hai? Most of those women could probably inflict more damage than those boys--and isn't damage what you're looking for in war?? I'm just asking for a few shieldmaidens, not the whole female population. It always seeming like a major flaw to me that Tolkien talked about shieldmaidens, but Eowyn was the only one. All he had to do was say something like "and in their ranks were some shieldmaidens," something to that effect, just to show that Eowyn wasn't such an anomaly and that others besides her did exist.
First thing to do when being stalked by an angry mob with raspberries is to release a tiger
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I guess they would resort to fighting only when it was necessary... from what I know children would only help out in battles, like bringing water, or carrying ammunitions. I don't remember any of the kids taking part in close combat with the Uruk-Hai, although there were some that threw rocks or shooting arrows at them from up the keep... that was as safe as for any adult who was fighting there...
I don't know about that one... Maybe royal blood was necessary for that one? That would explain why it is only Eowyn that is a shieldmaiden, and that would explain why, I think, people don't consider her all that much of an anomaly but something rare...
BTW, another train of thought... I think the fact that there were so many Uruk-Hai against so few Rohirrim and Elves actually worked - at some points - to their disadvantage. I mean, the defenders were more able to maneuver than the attackers and defend the place at full force, protected by the keep and having the advantage of height (It's easier to shoot downwards then upwards), while the Uruk-Hai would have to push themselves forward to reach the keep among the others, climb at the ladders, protecting themselves from the oncoming arrows and fight at the same time. With the keep in one piece, the Rohirrim would be able to defend much longer. The explosion turned the battle and nearly resulted in defeat...
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
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Interesting viewpoint there, Beregond.The Uruks did, as you say, move in one 'mass' most of the time, with little co-ordination or discipline, and, in turn, just made things more difficult for themselves.
I never thought of it that way.Thanks!
Ohhh, the jedi are going to feel this one!
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stamrr
(Sat Jun 21 19:20:44)
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 This scene just concretes my opinion of "why bother." if a self confessed Tolkien fan like Peter Jackson can rape the book so badly, what's the point. Why sit down for a few hours of someone elses watered down interpretation when you can enjoy the full majesty of Tolkiens creation anywhere with enough light to read. The movies aren't a pigeons fart on the book and quite frankly if a person could really enjoy the films then he or she obviously doesn't have the cerebral stamina to read and their views are therefore irrelevent!
 My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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Just because you dont like the movie, it doesnt mean its terrible!!! I read the first two books and saw the movies.I think the movies were great and so do most people.......mabey you just have bad taste in movies......
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 16:51:49)
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You are a joke. Come back when you're old enough to have an opinion.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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Pardon me for intruding, but LOTR_rocks does have an opinion. He/she (apologies, LR, but I don't believe we've met) holds the opinion that the movies are great. If that's not an opinion, pray share your definition of an opinion.
And just fyi, no one is "too young to have an opinion." Despite the fact that some people's opinions may seem to be based on fluff or seem shallow (not to say that anyone here is like that), that is their opinion nevertheless.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 17:50:43)
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LOTR_rocks is nobody. And no,Eowyn, I don't pardon you for intruding, that is typical of you. You swan around like you own the place, sticking your beak in where it's not wanted.
Here's a bit of advice, stop being a coward, if YOU have an opinion have the fortitude to stand by it without feeling the girlie need to apologise for it. Look at your post, "apologies," "Pardon me," justifying yourself, you are weak.
If you try to keep everybody else happy nobody will be happy, especially yourself.
Now come back when the Wizard gives you some courage.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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Be ashamed of yourself, stamrr. While I don't agree with you, at least I have the civility to be polite. That's the least you can do when someone gracefully disagrees with you.
I don't suppose you realise that behind every ID here is a person. And everyone has feelings, and I don't think that LOTR_rocks appreciates you saying that he/she is "nobody." You can kindly express your opinion of LOTR_rocks to him/her, but at least be polite about it.
You don't even know me. This is our first conversation together, but you may have lurked around, reading my posts. May I please ask when I've last intruded? At least I don't go around bashing people; if I do intrude, I try to do it with grace.
"girlie need"? If you're sexist, please do not discuss this any more with me. Apologising with civility is not characteristic of girls alone, fyi.
Furthermore, no one needs to give me courage; I've got enough already, thank you! 
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Just to add to what Eowyn said, there are quite a few intelligent posters here with "cerebral stamina," and they happen to like the movies (and quite a few even read the books before seeing the movies)--are you saying that everyone here is an idiot then?
I'm a study of a man in chaos in search of frenzy.
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(thanks UB)
In that case, it seems that stamrr is devastatingly outnumbered.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 17:57:26)
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Yes, it's a sad comment on society that I am outnumbered by the likes of you.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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Lol, Tom! 
I, too, love the Ignore List, but I'm bored and have nothing to do; this is just for kicks. Rather amusing, I must say. But thanks anyway!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 17:54:11)
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Did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth. Everybody here is not an idiot, you are an exception to the rule. Figure that one out birdbrain.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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All right, maybe I am intruding here, but I don't appreciate your insulting one of my friends. UB was not being rude to you; you've no right to be rude back. And, btw, UB is one of our smartest posters, so I don't know where you got that idea from.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 18:09:21)
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UB is one of you smartest posters...? Good god.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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Yes, God is good, and I don't understand why you're calling for Him right now.
I don't see how or why you have reason to scorn UB; unless I can no longer recall all my grammar lessons (and grammar happens to be one of my stronger academic points), the sentence "UB is one of you smartest posters" is not grammatically correct. If you are unable to write a grammatically correct sentence, you've no reason to scoff at UB.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 18:21:32)
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hahaha! Birdy is one of your smartest, and grammar is one of your strongest points, well I see I'm dealing with the intellectual elite of this world. How humbled am I?
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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In response to your question, I don't know. I can't and won't judge your character based on this one conversation.
In conclusion, I will no longer argue with you. I now agree with Shica, and this thread is a Good Post. I feel guilty for helping ruin the quality of this thread now. You may continue arguing for as long as you like, but I'm not going to argue back, at least not on this thread.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 18:27:10)
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Hat's off my Lady, It's good to see you come out of your shell.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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That's why I asked stamrr so as NOT to put words in your mouth. It's just a logical deduction from what you said here-- "he or she obviously doesn't have the cerebral stamina to read," that you were pretty much calling anyone who likes the movies illiterate, ie stupid.
Thanks Eowyn!!
I'm a study of a man in chaos in search of frenzy.
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Éowyn and UB, sorry to intrude in your nice chat, but i really don't think this guy is worth your time!!
If he has nothing better to do than run around telling people how smart he is and how dumb everyone else is, why don't we let him do that all by himself?? Lets see how much fun he has then.
And stamrr, before you start criticizing my grammar, spelling, inteligence, or any other thing you may like to criticize about yours truly, save it, i really don't care what you have to say about me.
Smile... tomorrow will be worse
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Ah, well, I'm bored on a Monday night. I've got nothing better to do; this amuses me to no end.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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sinaes
(Mon Jun 30 19:39:54)
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Eowyn, I'd just like to say that you've shown more intelligence, maturity, composure, and proper esteem than I've seen just about anyone show.
It's truly great to have you around most endearing shieldmaiden :)
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 18:17:15)
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I appreciate the honesty, although I know you won't read this.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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stamrr
(Mon Jun 30 18:13:43)
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Whatever Bird, obviously it's terminal, so go, enjoy the movies, wallow in the mire of mediocrity.
My opinion is the CORRECT opinion!
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UPDATED Mon Jun 30 18:01:35
