Moral decay and thoughts about the Ringwraiths- (Nazgul)
I'm reposting this thread for new posters and regulars too. I posted this thread very close to the release of (TTT). Although I received some excellent posts especially BB-15. I learned an important lesson about timing!
Anyway here it goes....
For Aristotle and I am sure for Tolkien as well, there is a hierarchy of the arts. Where music and literature play the highest roles, because of their close resemblance with consciousness itself. Literature exposes the word itself, the thought, the idea, exquisitely, subtly, over a long period of time of reading. Not just ideas, but clear comprehensive ideas, personalities, conflicts, and even sacred conflicts and sacred ideas, expressed over the medium of Literature. It is through this medium, that humanity can discover one of the highest conscious perspectives. In this moment of consciousness, beyond natural religion, beyond artistic religion, the word is of the uppermost importance.
Which in turn leads my thoughts in the direction of morality. For morality it seems attempts to sustain with its promise of harmony, resolution, synthesis and mutual compassion the problem of a fluctuating moral equilibrium. This catch being that this moral equilibrium is always in a constant state of instability, because of these variables, equating to a sparing of sorts between both good and evil temptations. In the beginning the seeds of the Nazgul moral decline rest in the aspirations of the ego.
In consideration of man it’s interesting how the origins of moral decline can start out first with the intentions of a return to previous altruistic objectives. This is usually the start of moral decline, which Tolkien used so masterfully! Sauron's deceiving the Ringwraiths is a fine example of Tolkiens concern with the nature of man's morality and how easily we are corrupted. For as Christopher Lee said about power in the special features of the (EE) DVD and I quote;
"That power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely."
The moral fabric of Tolkien's work is extraordinary which we have often spoken about. But this is a first time for me to look a little closer at the Nazgul. This fascination with the Ringswraith these mightiest of the dark Lord's servants. The nine Ringwraiths that were sent to scour Middle-earth for the One Ring of Power. Enslaved long ago to the will of Sauron by their rings, and transformed into his dark and deathless servants.
I am in awe at how Tolkien understood the lack of a vital element in man's life, often resulting in the adoption of an alternative. This alternative is usually embraced with fervor and radicalism. This extremism makes man work hard to persuade ourselves that what we took as a second choice is the best there ever was. The blind faith and thirst for power could be seen as the dramatic tragedy of the Nazgul. Their insatiable desire and greed a substitute for hope! For it could be said that the Ringwraith's fail to see that it's the nature of all progress, greed, & envy that it looks much greater than it really is.
Throughout the (FOTR) Tolkien presents numerous examples that deal with the challenges of moral decay and the plight of man in the absence of hope. The (EE) version displays more insight into the troubled souls that this plagues. Galadriel speaking to Boromir and of course Aragorn speaking to Boromir and visa versa.
"It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt. Over so small a thing . Such a little thing."
as well as when Boromir spoke to Frodo.
Gandalf's death was not in vain, nor would he have you give up hope. You carry a heavy burden Frodo. Don't carry the weight of the dead.
As usual I speak of just a few. But I would be very interested in others observations of this conceptual idea throughout Tolkiens body of work. For with the absence of hope, the compassionate spirit would most certainly perish. And a lack of empathy would result in the personification of evil, this being the Nazgul or Sauron's lieutenants.
It is usually these types, these once Kings of men that renounced the self and became part of a compact whole in a quest for more power than they already have. They not only willing renounce personal advantage but are also rid of personal responsibility. There is no telling to what extremes of cruelty and ruthlessness a man will go when he is freed from the fears, hesitations, doubts and the vague stirrings of decency that go with individual judgment. When the Ringwraith lose their individual independence in the quest for the ring becoming Sauron's slaves of his will. Tolkien demonstrates how a sense of freedom is felt! Freedom to hate, bully, lie, torture, murder and betray without shame or remorse. The result the Nazgul, Black riders, nine riders, Nine Servants and winged shadows of man's potentiality for moral decay...
So I sit here and wait! and wonder what you think?
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sinaes
(Mon May 12 21:29:33)
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The "nine" did fall into moral decay.
But what is Tolkien really saying. He didn't say the "nine" were evil to begin with .. only that there was the capacity for it. To some extant, Tolkien says this about all the "bad" guys ... gollum, saruman, sauron.
So, viewed in this vain .. Tolkien is actually saying that the natural order of things is a "moral" path. That things only become evil, when they stop being true to who they naturally are. So the question of how one becomes what one is, if what one is, is evil .. can be answered with: denying one's true self. And perhaps, the world's true self.
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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So the question of how one becomes what one is, if what one is, is evil .. can be answered with: denying one's true self. And perhaps, the world's true self.
The most important truths about oneself are likely to be those which at the most opportune time are the least one wants to hear. I also like your line about the world true self concept. Interesting food for thought!
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Ptero-valley
(Mon May 12 23:05:34)
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 UPDATED Mon May 12 23:06:58 |
Hi Paul,
I just wonder if the true weakness of men is that they are unable (or at least not very good at) examining their consciences to discern what's right and wrong.
Immediate self-gratification and the desire to get along with popular sentiment seem a much easier road to follow than to sacrifice comfort and to take unpopular stands in the name of ethics and compassion.
Once the Kings had their rings, I believe it became very easy for them to become self-righteous about their elite position and to slowly fall into the grip of Sauron. I believe it was a very human thing for them to increasingly want to ally themselves with great power rather than to try to confront it.
Eventually their free will dissolved altogether and they became the Nazgul, ringwraiths, neither living nor dead. Once they lost their capacity of self-examination, they lost their free will and became simply tools of evil.
Power has got to be humans' biggest quandary and contradiction. But power encountered by the self-examined person, I think, can also be transformed into compassion.
That is the lesson of Gandhi.
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I just wonder if the true weakness of men is that they are unable (or at least not very good at) examining their consciences to discern what's right and wrong.
Immediate self-gratification and the desire to get along with popular sentiment seem a much easier road to follow than to sacrifice comfort and to take unpopular stands in the name of ethics and compassion.
Valley, I find myself stumbling for words to respond to this. Because I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts. I'm actually speechless for once.
Once the Kings had their rings, I believe it became very easy for them to become self-righteous about their elite position and to slowly fall into the grip of Sauron. I believe it was a very human thing for them to increasingly want to ally themselves with great power rather than to try to confront it.
So true Val, We usually see only the things we are looking for so much so that we sometimes see them where they are not. Power has links with insecurity which breed’s action to permanently doze the fear of inaptness.
Power has got to be humans' biggest quandary and contradiction. But power encountered by the self-examined person, I think, can also be transformed into compassion.
A slight shift of direction in thought comes to mind if power is human’s biggest quandary and contradiction. Then a sort of Discontent must permeate, but does not invariably create a desire for change. Other factors have to be present before discontent turns into disaffection. One of these is a sense of power. It is interesting to note that these once great kings of men. Could have still within them the craving and need for more when the supposedly have so much! A great tragedy Val and a comment on self-worth, as well as self-examination and desire that is shameful about humanity.
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Ptero-valley
(Tue May 13 22:43:19)
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| UPDATED Tue May 13 23:02:50 |
Paul, tonight I was watching the really excellent "Sci-Fi Channel Special" that's on the theatrical dvd of Fellowship of the Ring.
In it, Jackson relates that Tolkien believed that the ring represents the machine. Tolkien's view must have been that humans are becoming increasingly fascinated (and addicted) to mechanized civilization and to the great sense of security it brings them.
But this fascination with the machine is also separating us from an even greater security in our connection to nature -- with all its magic and beauty -- and our own nature and culture as spiritual human beings.
So, is there any way we can pull back from this all-encompassing, Matrix-like machine before we become the Nazgul?
To be able to answer that question, I think, would put us right into the center of Tolkien's visionary philosophy.
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I was always under the impression that the Wraiths were orignally "great kings and rulers of men" (If I've quoted it right) To my mind Tolkien was speaking of them as being noble and just rulers for he has often mentioned the wise and most reknown rulers in his books as being "great"
I think that Sauron corrupted them in the very same way he corrupted the rulers of Numenor, by playing on their fears of death. As they became more brittle with age he played on thier terror of approaching oblivion and offered them a means of salvation, namely the nine rings.
As any drowning man who clutches at a straw the rulers took the rings seeing them as the means of escaping death. The rest you know.
So to sum up, I don't think that the nine were orginally evil in heart to begin with but succumbed to it by the lies and deceits of Sauron.
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You know it's great to see your philosophical thoughts without the use of the  . 
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| UPDATED Wed May 14 19:54:16 |
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I don't think I've ever spoken to you before. Are you new around here. Thanks for the interesting post.
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Hello, aye I'm new and just hoping to make useful contributions to this message board!
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Thank you for reposting these old threads! This is a very thought provoking topic.
I wonder if the further one travels down the road of moral decay, the harder it is to see one’s actions subjectively. Everyone can find justification for their actions; but the boundaries of decency blur as one approaches them, and the more egocentric one becomes, empathy and therefore compassion become less relevant.
Tolkien cleverly shows us the difference between self-awareness and self-absorption. The self-aware individual is able to see the wider picture and the implications of their actions (both for themselves and for others) and is able to put the fate of others before their own. Those that are self-absorbed can spiral into moral decay because they are simply unable to see beyond their own desires.
Sauron uses peoples’ own desires to tempt and corrupt them. And he realises that the more corrupt his subjects become, the easier it will be for him to use them as unwitting pawns for his own plans.
He recognises Saruman’s desire for power, and corrupts it into a need to dominate and control. Saruman is so consumed by his desire to possess the ring, that he forgets that it will only ultimately serve Sauron.
He recognises the ancient kings’ desire to rule, and corrupts it with promises of power conferred by the nine rings – and uses that very desire to ensnare them.
He recognises Denethor’s desire to remain ruler of Gondor, and uses the palantir to erode all hope from him.
The erosion of the spirit without hope is shown very effectively by the character of Denethor . This once noble leader of a proud fighting people is reduced to impotence by the destruction of his will, achieved by taking hope away from him. At the point before he dies, he says to Gandalf:
“Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north south or west…. With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the north to supplant me.”
A very telling speech. Sauron has played on Denethor’s concerns for his city, the succession of his son to the Stewardship, and his lifelong suspicion of Aragorn’s destiny, to twist his perceptions of what victory for good would entail. Denethor becomes convinced that there is no hope, whatever the outcome of the war – so paving the way for Sauron’s victory. If good is not worth fighting for, then evil will triumph.
But Sauron himself becomes a victim of moral decay blinding him to others. He judges others by his own morally corrupted standards. Convinced that nobody will be strong willed enough to resist using the one ring for their own ends, he cannot comprehend that the destruction of the ring would be the tactic of his enemies. And, of course, this results in his downfall – rather than guarding the slopes of Mount Doom against the arrival of the ring, he concentrates on military force against Gondor, where he assumes the ring will be taken. The arrogance that is born of moral absence is brought home so vividly.
Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate...
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Great post, but its 1:00 am in the morning! so "I'll be back" as Arnold would say tomorrow to reply...
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I wonder if the further one travels down the road of moral decay, the harder it is to see one’s actions subjectively. Everyone can find justification for their actions; but the boundaries of decency blur as one approaches them, and the more egocentric one becomes, empathy and therefore compassion become less relevant.
Desperation or despotism and egocentric behavior it seems go hand in hand. The absolute power that Saurman craves turns its possessors not into a God but an anti-God. I once long ago wrote an aphorism on that subject!
I hope you like it.
The absolution of power
revolves in a fanatic lunacy
making ego’s malleable
ductile…
inflated, deflated
wary of vicious assaults
greedy soldiers hover near
eager to assail themselves to that
which they think they want!…
Tolkien cleverly shows us the difference between self-awareness and self-absorption. The self-aware individual is able to see the wider picture and the implications of their actions (both for themselves and for others) and is able to put the fate of others before their own. Those that are self-absorbed can spiral into moral decay because they are simply unable to see beyond their own desires.
Very clever of you to make that distinction. Bella...
The erosion of the spirit without hope is shown very effectively by the character of Denethor . This once noble leader of a proud fighting people is reduced to impotence by the destruction of his will, achieved by taking hope away from him. At the point before he dies, he says to Gandalf:
“Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north south or west…. With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the north to supplant me.”
I must admit that I have not paid to much attention to Denethor yet. but your thoughts about the erosion of the spirit without hope is something of worthy note.
It could be said that desire is a form of suffering that searches for a taste of better things to come, which excites people to hope for the evolution of their dreams.
But Sauron himself becomes a victim of moral decay blinding him to others. He judges others by his own morally corrupted standards. Convinced that nobody will be strong willed enough to resist using the one ring for their own ends, he cannot comprehend that the destruction of the ring would be the tactic of his enemies. And, of course, this results in his downfall – rather than guarding the slopes of Mount Doom against the arrival of the ring, he concentrates on military force against Gondor, where he assumes the ring will be taken. The arrogance that is born of moral absence is brought home so vividly.
Absolutely! ultimately he could not give up the ring, which is why he would think his enemies wouldn't have the strength too.
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Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Paul...
But I can't take the credit for that first quote - it was from sinaes's post, I think!
"It could be said that desire is a form of suffering that searches for a taste of better things to come, which excites people to hope for the evolution of their dreams. "
That's a very perceptive statement. Desire can be a two-edged sword - "Be careful what you wish for..."
Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate...
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But I can't take the credit for that first quote - it was from sinaes's post, I think!
Sorry about that sinae's, I accidently pasted it in there when I checked my spelling.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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athene-5
2 days ago (Thu Jul 17 20:19:42)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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