What is Gollum? Gollum is well known to be the alter ego of Smeagol. Obviously Gollum is the character that spawned due to the evil of the ring.
Now look through the logic- Sauron is the will of evil. As Gandalf says, "Sauron is bound to the ring and the ring survived".
But it occured to me today in an altered self-induced chemical state there may be more to this that I foolishly overlooked. It began when I was repeatedly watching a scene at the official LOTR site, the part where the creature says "Where would you be without me? I saved us, it was me, we survived because of me!"
Now is the entity that says this a collection of impressionable characteristics that were bent to badness due to the ring?
Or....
Could it possibly be Sauron stating through Smeagol and persuading Smeagol to kill the hobbits and claim the ring for himself (thus saving the ring, and therefore saving Sauron). I never thought of it this way, but is this really that difficult to believe? "I saved us, you owe me"....as in you the lonely creature, and I the will of Sauron have saved you (although Sauron is known as the DECEIVER) and therefore you owe it to me to listen to me.
Is is that hard to believe?
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Okay, that was confrontational, but true.
Smeagol didn't kill before Deagol found the ring, Smeagoil's first murder was to kill Deagol for the ring, so now that's out of the way, lets tackle the Sauron issue.
Gollum is not acting out the will of Sauron, Gollum wants the ring for himself. Sauron has no idea where the ring is, or who has it. If he did the quest would have failed. He knew Frodo had the ring on Weathertop, but due to Pippin using the palantir, he probably thought Saruman had it, and later when Aragorn used the palantir, he thought it was in Gondor, in Aragorn's keeping. This is the entire strategy of the Fellowship, make Sauron think they have the ring and will use it against him, keep his attention away from Cirith Ungol and Mt Doom.
It's good to be the king!
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Why try again when everything I've said can be verified? If you disagree with me, feel free to point out where and quote your sources.
I'll quote mine, ok? Its Tolkien's novel, The Lord of the Rings!!
It's good to be the king!
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How about you just make your point
It's good to be the king!
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Yes, I believe that Deagol found the ring on the bottom of the river, and Smeagol killed him for it. That's why Smeagol murdered Deagol, for possession of the ring, that's how the ring works. That's what it did to Boromir. That's why Frodo turns on Sam when Sam offers to help Frodo carry it, its why Bilbo turned ugly in Rivendell.
I still don't understand why you think Smeagol was a murderer before the ring showed up, and what exactly I said that you think is wrong.
I think you're trying to say that Smeagol murdered Deagol, and the ring had nothing to do with it, which is nonsense, but I can't be sure because you won't explain yourself.
It's good to be the king!
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Tom Bombadillo, are you there? Are you going to reply or have you run away? If you're waiting for support from elsewhere you'll be waiting a long time.
What we have here is a failure to communicate
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You seem to have trouble understanding me, so I'll say it very slowly.
You disagreed with something I wrote, but you haven't said what it is you disagreed with, or what you consider the correct information to be. You keep making veiled references to something that you somehow believe will refute my previous assertions, but still refrain from stating your case. I have better things to do than waste my time playing silly games with silly people. Say what you mean. Nobody is going to post anything else in this thread, they, like me, are waiting for you to stop waffling and actually say something.
What we have here is a failure to communicate
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You presume to speak for others. Ah well.
I simply made a prediction, which turned out to be accurate.
What could have been a great thread turned into quite an abortion. I suppose that's the real reason no one else bothered to respond
Brilliant!! If you'd bothered to read any of my numerous requests to you to actually say something, instead of blathering on about nothing, you'd know why.
I'll save my points and comments on Smeagol/Gollum, points not discussed from the Shades of Grey thread, Tolkien's applicability, possession, good & evil & more that was to connect with this thread, for another day & on other threads.
Well you certainly haven't discussed any points here, you've managed to post 5 or 6 times and say absolutely nothing.
It would really be a waste of time here
You wasted my time, no argument.
Oh yes, please don't quote LoTR as your source again. Tolkien would roll in his grave
You criticise me for speaking for others, and here you are speaking for Tolkien, you arrogant twat! Go away. Nothing to say, but a big mouth to say it with.
That's not flying, that's falling, with style
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 by -
BB-15
(Sun Jul 6 12:28:54)
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Hi player-hater; Nice post.
"Could it possibly be Sauron stating through Smeagol and persuading Smeagol to kill the hobbits and claim the ring for himself"
I think you are on to something but it is hard to find answers in LOTR. A better reference is Tolkien's background story, the Silmarillion.
In the Silmarillion, the myth presents a great evil power named Melkor who is also known as Morgoth. The good powers known as the Valar (minus Morgoth) were trying to create a paradise but Melkor oppossed them. Melkor and his servants infected Middle Earth with evil like a disease.
1. Evil as an infection. So, one way to look at evil in LOTR is to think of all the evil characters being infected by the evil created by Melkor. Smeagol could be seen this way, as a good person who had that evil inside him from the original evil from Melkor/Morgoth.
Sauron was originally good according to Tolkien's writings but became a servant of Melkor/Morgoth. So it could be that he was infected also. The Ring as Sauron's creation was filled with this original evil.
2. Sauron is not the source of all evil; Saruon is a great projector of evil. Yet even he is limited to portions of Middle Earth while the original evil has infected even the Elves in the Blessed Realm in the West. There would be no Sauron as described in the story without Melkor/Morgoth’s original work.
3. The Ring as a source of infection of evil. The Ring's effect is very localized by contrast to the greater evil that I mentioned before. In LOTR there are many characters who do evil deeds who are no where near the Ring.
Another thing about the Ring is that it affects characters very differently. When Deagol found the Ring, why didn't he kill Smeagol? Why didn’t Aragorn kill Frodo to get the Ring?
4. Free Will; To further explain how evil acts we have to look at free will. If we ignore the Orcs under the direct control of Sauron for a moment, every character that does evil in Tolkien’s story is near other characters who do not choose to do this evil act. Even in the beginning of the story Melkor by free will chose to do evil things. Sauron at one time could have changed to good we are told but he decided to continue his evil path. Boromir and Smeagol have other choices than the path they take. Bilbo is not a murderer and neither is Aragorn. The characters have choices. And maybe Tolkien’s ultimate message is that evil is not in some object but is due to who we decide to become.
TO SUM IT UP; So, is the Gollum personality in the story because Smeagol makes the choice to be evil? Or is he simply totally under the power of the Ring, Sauron or the original evil of Melkor/Morgoth without an ability to act on his own? The evidence in the story is finely balanced which is why these discussions about evil in Tolkien’s world will never end.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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athene-5
1 day ago (Sun Aug 3 18:00:42)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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