Anyone interested in discussing the literary values of the book?
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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WHAT! Again? 
Of course! What interests you most? I find myself drawn to the very classic manner in which Tolkien incorporates archetypes into his work, and find that he has been very clever in his use of technique to this end.
For example, he uses the 'journey to awareness' theme very effectively, for almost all of his key characters, with devices such as river passages, forest-to-meadow, water-to-desert, shaman figures, use of light symbolism...is this the kind of discussion you have in mind? Or are you more interested in his style and specific content? His poetry? Comparisons with other authors? Give us a hint...I'm sure you'll find a good discussion ensues.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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This sounds interesting. I've always seen Tolkien as inspiring Fantasy; like the Beatles did with Rock music. On the other hand, there's a lot of Morse myth in his vision.
Any Fantasy writer now seems to be Tolkien-conscious - either in avoiding his style, or by developing it.
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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"Any Fantasy writer now seems to be Tolkien-conscious - either in avoiding his style, or by developing it.
Nice comment Theoden, it reminds me a bit of what a certain Terry Pratchett (a well-known writer from what I heard, even though I haven't read any of his work)said about Tolkien: all modern fantasies are just rearrangements in Tolkien's attic.
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! 
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Question from a Very Young Person:
Who were Tolkien's contemporaries in the fantasy genre?
Inquiring minds desperately want to take Brit Lit in college...........
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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Tolkien's most famous contemporaries were the Inklings; a small closed group of friends of which Tolkien was part. The most notable of these was C.S. Lewis.
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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Merci...I'll do some research on who the rest of these people were. My best friend got me a C.S. Lewis book for Christmas because I told her that I was reading Tolkien.
Now C.S. Lewis wrote...what, the Narnia books? I remember trying to read those in grade school and getting utterly bored. Now that I'm older, maybe I ought to give them another go.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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Yes, Lewis wrote the Narnia series, as well as a science fiction trilogy. The latter is much darker.
"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
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If you really want to see what C.S. Lewis could do with language have a go at We Have Faces. It is one of the best books I have ever read. Believe me, it's worth having in your library.
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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The full title is Until We Have Faces. I agree, great book!
"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
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frodolives
(Sun Jan 19 06:47:30)
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 UPDATED Sun Jan 19 06:50:09 |
You mean, Tolkien's really about encryption, and all one has to do is decipher his long - short short's ???
(sorry couldn't help it. Cute typo!) 
I haven't read a lot of other Fantasy literature so I can't say much on that head, but I think Tolkien has inspired a whole lot of creative people - from computer nerds to ecology-minded people to performers of early music - so I think his influence doesn't stop at literature.
I think it's a great topic btw. and one that has been somewhat underdone so far - don't have time now but I'll try to get back to it!
Disclaimer: this post is not intended to attack or insult anyone. It's just my opinion.
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After my parents had bought what they thought were all of Tolkien's books, they gave me a paperback titled "After the King: Stories inspired by J.R.R. Tolkien's LOTR". It was a collection of fantasy short stories by several different authors. Some of them were really lame but a few clued me in to some authors I've really enjoyed. Don't know if it's still in print though.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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Yes, it is still in print. I bought it last summer. I'd agree with your assessment, some lame stuff, but also some very fine short fiction in there.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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damianarlyn
(Sat Jan 18 11:42:28)
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| UPDATED Sat Jan 18 11:42:56 |
Just kidding! HA!
"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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...on a good topic.
My mom is an English teacher. When my dad convinced her to watch the FotR extended version with us, she was convinced that she was going to be able to predict the entire thing with no knowledge of Tolkien whatsoever. Her rationale for this? "I've read a million summaries of The Hobbit." Feel free to laugh right about...now.
Now, my mom, as a general rule, hates fantasy. She likes the Harry Potter books for their entertainment value, but other than that, she just doesn't grasp the reasons why anyone would like fantasy. She believes that LotR is nothing more than your basic hero's journey archetypal story, which is why she thought that she could predict its events. Mom, who fell asleep from time to time during the movie, was confused and outraged at the end. "But...no, it can't be the end! They didn't defeat the evil!" Of course, we then had to explain to her that LotR is a three part story.
But during the beginning and middle portions of the movie, Mom loudly pointed out pieces of her "Hero Cycle." They include:
-Reluctant hero (Frodo) receives call to action
-Existence of evil power (Sauron) which hero must defeat to save the world
-Wise, supernatural power helps hero on journey (Gandalf)
But there's so much more to Tolkien's story--particularly in the books more than in the movies--that I'm not entirely sure it fits perfectly in the mold. What about the companions in the Fellowship? Where do they fit? What about Rohan? What about Gollum? And why do we have a dual evil with both Saruman and Sauron?
So, board, think really hard about what you learned in high school English class--Does LotR fit the hero's journey archetype? Why/why not? You have 45 minutes to complete this essay (just kidding).
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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sinaes
(Sun Jan 19 00:52:40)
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So, board, think really hard about what you learned in high school English class--Does LotR fit the hero's journey archetype? Why/why not? You have 45 minutes to complete this essay (just kidding)
It's going to take more than 45 min .. especially since I still have to read the books :)
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
No need to say anything .. just open your eyes.
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On another thread you commented on my old sig:
If I told you a secret you won't tell a soul
Will you hold it and keep it alive
Love that signature, zebra :)
I replied:
Do you really? Have I a fellow Travis fan on this board?
It's my Frodo/Sam song. I was thinking about starting a "what songs do you associate with LotR" thread in a couple of days.
I changed my sig though cuz I felt like it was too...bulky? I dunno, it was bugging me, sometimes it was longer than my posts.  Whaddaya think, should I change it back anyway?
That thread's way the heck in oblivion somewhere...but I wanted to know if you liked it because you were a Travis fan too or if there was some other reason.
Curiosity killed the zebra.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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If Tolkien's works fit into any mold, it's because he's the one who created it.
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See, that's sorta what I think. Sure, if you strip it down and gut it out, LotR is a hero's journey, but there's soooo much more to it than that, I could go on forever.
But, because I'm lazy and tired and about to go to bed, I'm asking the board to do it for me. 
In my sophomore English class we studied archetypes the whole year, starting with the hero cycle and using The Odyssey as a model. That was such a boring year. And it only got worse (my current English teacher is an insane ex-hippie).
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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lol! my mom also doesn't like fantasy. my dad finally made her watch it, and she fell asleep too. she admited it was a well-made movie, but said 'they were just fighting all the time', which leads me to believe that she fell asleep at moria and didn't wake up again until amon hen.
i think lotr does, in many ways, fit the archetype, but it goes beyond that, and the themes and stories are much richer because of the world he created around it. and there's psychological issues that i think are lacking in other hero stories, because of the psychological aspects of the ring. that can be a tough thing for an author, or a filmmaker, to pull off, and i think both tolkien and pj did it very well.
there's also the 'hero going off to war' analogy, which is very prevalent: young idealistic men who go to battle and return different people. that's more potent, i think, and more real than a standard fantasy journey.
although i haven't read as much fantasy as most people on this board, so i may be proven wrong. also that doesn't really come together until rotk. a lot of the arcs of the themes haven't been developed by the end of fotr.
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TheodenKing
(Sun Jan 19 08:32:52)
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| UPDATED Sun Jan 19 08:38:11 |
My colleagues were Harry Potter crazy. They had never read LOTR. When the movie came out, many were impressed to the point that they started asking me for the books.
One of them commented that she felt as if JK Rowling had opened the LOTR books and simply wrote a reinterpretation of the novel.
Whereas I feel that's an unfair comment on Rowling, it says a lot on Tolkien's effect on modern fantasy writers.
Peter Jackson needed to change things from the books in his movie adaptation because Tolkien's work has been copied by so many writers that it has become cliche.
An example: a) most fantasy writers have their heroes going on journeys to complete their quests. see Jordan, Brooks, Feist
b) the creation of a fantasy world
c) epic wars, hidden monarchs, unlikely heroes, etc
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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The simple answer, to me, is that at a basic level, LotR does fit the fantasy hero's journey archetype, because it created it. It is the modern epic fantasy work on which all others have been based. However, as much as it defined that archetype, it has considerably more depth (in the neighborhood of 20,000 years worth of history)
The only previous comparisons would be things like The Illiad & The Odyssey, but they were narrative poems of mythic proportions, something else entirely. I may be forgetting something, but...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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As long as you are an italian-speaking person (aren't you?), you can link to www.granburrone.com, an italian site with various forum dedicated to this subject.
I apologize, but my english is bad and my will to discuss with you is great...
"Horns, horns, horns."
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Will try but I'm not that good in concentrating on more than one board.
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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 the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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Do you see a message here? Because I sure don't!
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens
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Me, either. Guess we'd better bump this up.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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TheodenKing
(Tue Jan 21 09:33:09)
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| UPDATED Tue Jan 21 09:34:12 |
Thanks.
THEY WERE ONCE MEN . . . AND HE WAS ONE adribuc BY NATURE.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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The road may pass, but they shall not! Not while Faramir is Captain.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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bump
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
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