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Elwe-Singollo
(Sun May 11 02:16:34)
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Firstly an apology this has probably been done to death, if so well you’ll know yourself whether you want to respond or not.
Well where to start, I suppose you could say this post is about the Elves that gave up there Immortality for love, in particular Arwen but also Luthien as well. In the books I have always been fascinated by Arwen’s and Aragorn’s tale in the appendixes... it always seemed to me to be in the vain of a classic tragic story. Let me explain what I mean on the one hand you have Arwen a 3000 year old immortal, a being who even should her body die on Middle Earth she knows that her soul will carry on and return to the Halls of Mandos to be reborn and on the other hand we have Aragorn a Human whose potential lifespan is like a blink of the eye for an immortal being... yet what happens, Arwen the immortal being gives up her immortality for the equivalent of a beating of her immortal heart to stay with Aragorn, to face the prospect of ultimately losing everything... Aragorn, her family and eventually when the heartbreak was to much life itself. Now I know some of you may say that death for Humans was called the gift of Iluvatar but imagine going from the certainty of immortality to the uncertainty of having no knowledge of what will become of you after you leave this life.
So my question is this put yourself in Arwen’s place, imagine that you had the same decision to make... would you give immortality up (to face death & uncertainty) for the possibility of being with your true love?
And secondly.
What is your rational behind making the decision to either stay immortal or embrace a mortal life?
The other thing that intrigued me about Arwen’s decision relates to the passage in the book that describes her parting with Elrond which was roughly as follows.
(N.B. not an exact transcribe) Elrond and Arwen travelled up into the hills alone for Arwen would be travelling no further than Edoras. Long they talked and bitter was the parting that would last until the end of days.
Now then what interested me about this was that the decision that Arwen eventually made could be said to have caused eternal anguish to her loved ones... her father Elrond her mother who would never be able to say goodbye due to the fact she is in Valinor, her brothers Elladan and Elrohir and not least her grandmother Galadriel would spend eternity knowing that they would never see her again. Also lets not forget Aragorn who at the end of his life said that should she repent her decision to be a mortal she should take ship to Valinor... I have wondered about that comment often, I’ve always thought surely Aragorn must have realised that by Arwen making the decision to stay with that she was doomed to a mortal life. Yet if that was the case why make this comment if he knew it to be impossible... well I think that maybe to block out any guilt that he felt for Arwen becoming mortal he perhaps thought in his heart that perhaps at the end of his days she would be able to go to Valinor and rejoin her family.
So here is the question do you think that Arwen’s decision was in essence a selfish one given the amount of potential suffering it would cause to her family and loved ones? and for what reason do you think it is selfish or not?
Many wonder why? Unfortunately when they get the answer they don’t always listen
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Deep questions, ifi. I don't have time to write a good reply right now, so am just bumping this up in hopes others will see it and respond.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I look forward to reading your reply, hopefully some of the other posters will reply as well.
Many wonder why? Unfortunately when they get the answer they don’t always listen
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I don't think that it's selfish at all to give up the chance of immortality for one such as Aragorn. Let us not forget that Tolkein himself said that there comes a time when the elves weary of Middle Earth and leave it for the blessed realm. Who isn't to say that countless ages down the road the Elves will become weary of Aman too ?
I think that Arwen knew this full well and to spend the whole of eternity being alive whilst Aragorn was dust is too much for her to bear. The blessed realm would have seemed tarnished after a while. Thus the choice to live a few brief years (to her) with Aragorn makes the sacrifice worthwhile.
Let us not forget also that according to Tolkein, Ulluvatar had a plan for mortals which would only come to fruition when Morgoth is totally vanquished and that all the races would collect together alive and well and ready to fulfil his vision. Thus Arwen and Aragorn would come back to life once more. For all those immortals left to grieve for her, all they would need to do is to bide their time until the day they are once again re-united.
So basically, Arwen to her mind was making the right choice by staying with Aragorn, although the knowledge she and others have doesn't make it easy for them.
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Thank you for replying Forkbeard.
I don't think that it's selfish at all to give up the chance of immortality for one such as Aragorn.
With regards to it being a potentially selfish desicion I was trying to imply that there was a very palpable loss felt by Elrond and Arwens family who returned to Valinor and that this loss would have remained with them for eternity... Could you imagine being an immortal being who knows that they will never see their daughter again? For the elves this was in reality an almost unknown experience... how would Elrond react to that? after all with Elves even those that died were returned to the Halls of Mandos to be reborn, they never truly died, there spirit carried on. Yet Elrond and Arwens family would now never be able to see Arwen again at least until the end of the world and then who knows?. I do not think the desicion in itself can be painted in colours of black and white as totally selfish or totally unselfish but more in shades of gray.
Who isn't to say that countless ages down the road the Elves will become weary of Aman too ?
Very interesting observation I'd never thought of that before... as you say who knows?
Let us not forget also that according to Tolkein, Ulluvatar had a plan for mortals which would only come to fruition when Morgoth is totally vanquished and that all the races would collect together alive and well and ready to fulfil his vision. Thus Arwen and Aragorn would come back to life once more. For all those immortals left to grieve for her, all they would need to do is to bide their time until the day they are once again re-united.
I do agree to an extent... but I think that for the characters of Aragorn and Arwen I don't know that you could say that they would have had the benefit of knowing that what was in Illuvatar's plans that was something that no Elf or Man would have known for certain so I do not think that Arwen's desicion could made with any benefit of foresight.
So basically, Arwen to her mind was making the right choice by staying with Aragorn, although the knowledge she and others have doesn't make it easy for them.
Yes but considering what I was saying above what desicion would you have made?
Again thank you very much for your input Forkbeard.
Many wonder why? Unfortunately when they get the answer they don’t always listen
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Many wonder why? Unfortunately when they get the answer they don’t always listen
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I shall quote to you the relevant passage that can be found in the book "The Shaping of Middle Earth" which deals with Tolkien's earliest writings on the subject. As far as I know, this passage has been hinted at elsewhere in his works but never fully expanded upon nor altered.
"...when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, The Morgoth shall come back through the door out of Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs.
"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melkor, and on his right hand shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melkor his death and final end; so shall the children of Hurin and all men be avenged.
"Thereafter shall the Silmarils be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up the flame he hath in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the three and yield them up to Yavanna Palurien; and she shall break them and with the fire rekindle the two trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the mountains of Valinor shall be leveled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Illuvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names amongst the gods."
So much for the fate of the Elves, this is a wild stab in the dark on my part, but from hints given elsewhere I think that all men will be brought to life and given the gift of immortality and will join the Elves and Gods in completing the song of Illuvatar.
To hark back to the question asked of me, would I sacrifice all that I have known to live a mortal life for one such as Aragorn?
Yes I would, to meet one such as he and know that despite the brief years together it will be very much worthwhile.
If I chose immortality and lived all those long ages questioning what might have been I'd probably go insane. Not only that, could I wait for what well might be hundreds of thousands of years waiting for him? (it's bad enough waiting for a bus; on a lighter note !)
At least with the choice of mortality the regrets I might experience after Aragorn dies will be comparatively brief.
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Etremely limited for time at the moment will get back to you ASAP.
If you looked in a mirror and saw your true self what would you think?
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Thank you for digging this out Forkbeard, I'm trying to make a start on the History of Middle Earth series but haven't had much joy yet... Life keeps getting in the way.
So much for the fate of the Elves, this is a wild stab in the dark on my part, but from hints given elsewhere I think that all men will be brought to life and given the gift of immortality and will join the Elves and Gods in completing the song of Illuvatar.
It is a shame that we will never truly know what Tolkien had planned, unless some unfound piece of manuscript appears that has previously not been published. Ah well failing that we can only speculate I suppose your idea sounds like a good one everyone all together again it would certainly heal a lot of wounds thats for sure but I don't know I had always thought from what Tolkien hinted that maybe they escaped the chains of the universe and their souls could travel where they will. Oh well like I said who knows .
To hark back to the question asked of me, would I sacrifice all that I have known to live a mortal life for one such as Aragorn?
Yes I would, to meet one such as he and know that despite the brief years together it will be very much worthwhile.
If I chose immortality and lived all those long ages questioning what might have been I'd probably go insane. Not only that, could I wait for what well might be hundreds of thousands of years waiting for him? (it's bad enough waiting for a bus; on a lighter note !)
At least with the choice of mortality the regrets I might experience after Aragorn dies will be comparatively brief.
Firstly agree about the bus, why is it when you go for a bus and your running late the Bus has always just left cos it's early and when your there in plenty of time it's always late  . Anyway back to the point in hand I understand what your saying about being immortal and regretting the desicion, however I wonder if the emotion would be as great for the elves a passage from LOTR comes to mind in which it says about Leoglas sleeping and how his memories can be experienced almost like waking dreams now I wonder given that would Arwen not be able to cope with the parting better to some extent... who knows but thsi I do aggree with the choice of mortality would be comparitively brief albiet if we take from Tolkiens writings undeniably painful at the end (see my other post with transcribe from Aragorn's and Arwen's appendix).
Again many thanks for the input Forkbeard.
Namáriâë! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar. Nai elyë hiruva. Namáriâë!
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| UPDATED Fri May 16 21:40:11 |
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Aule
(Fri May 16 22:21:08)
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Okay, no, I don't think it was selfish. I think it was true love. She didn't lightly give up her immortality, particularly with her family leaving for Aman, and her father railing against it.
Elrond did respect and appreciate Aragorn, but this was bitter sweat. Aragorn meant the loss of his daughter, so Elrond's fondness and respect for him was hard come by. Arwen no doubt had many a heart felt discussion with Elrond regarding her relationship with Aragorn. She had decades to consider it. Elrond placed a condition for his approval - that Aragorn be King of all of Middle Earth.
He did it. How could she refuse him? Not to mention the fact that she loved him, and would be a Queen at his side, and would receive the Gift of Man. She would live a bright and meaningfull life - a shooting star from her perspective, despite the century and a half that she would spend with him.
The alternative was unrequited love for all eternity. She gave up immortality for love. It doesn't sound selfish to me.
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Thank you Aule for your response
Okay, no, I don't think it was selfish. I think it was true love. She didn't lightly give up her immortality, particularly with her family leaving for Aman, and her father railing against it.
I do agree with you Aule it definitely was "True Love" and also agree that the decision she made certainly was not an easy or lightly made one.
Elrond did respect and appreciate Aragorn, but this was bitter sweat. Aragorn meant the loss of his daughter, so Elrond's fondness and respect for him was hard come by. Arwen no doubt had many a heart felt discussion with Elrond regarding her relationship with Aragorn. She had decades to consider it. Elrond placed a condition for his approval - that Aragorn be King of all of Middle Earth.
Indeed this is something I sometimes forget the fact that decades passed between there meeting and there eventual marriage. I often think that the decision that Arwen makes was a one of those dammed if you do and dammed if you don't times. After all who among us if we were in a loving family would want to make the decision between family and "True Love"... I certainly wouldn't especially when you add the equation of your family having to spend eternity without you... having to deal with that loss. Aragorn I feel almost has the easier time of it you could perhaps say that has everything to gain and nothing to loose, although thinking about that you have to consider as well that Elrond brought Aragorn up and as such was very much the father figure to Aragorn... but hey that's going into a totally different thread.
He did it. How could she refuse him? Not to mention the fact that she loved him, and would be a Queen at his side, and would receive the Gift of Man. She would live a bright and meaningful life - a shooting star from her perspective, despite the century and a half that she would spend with him.
The alternative was unrequited love for all eternity. She gave up immortality for love. It doesn't sound selfish to me.
Before I say anything can I say that I especially like what you said She would live a bright and meaningful life - a shooting star from her perspective. Right I'm not sure what to say... I find the fact that Arwen made the decision to give up immortality was a huge sacrifice perhaps what I should be trying to say is that the world is selfish in that even though Arwen has true love it will always be bitter sweet as she knows that she has lost her family and eventually after her time with Aragorn is up she dies heartbroken... she receives the gift of man eventually but not before loosing what was dearest to her in the world... was this to much a cost to ask of her? Was it to much a cost to ask of her family? and who knows what the gift of man would entail? anyway I am rambling now.
Again many thanks for your input Aule.
Where does all the hate come from.......?
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Aule
(Sat May 17 09:53:26)
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It really depends on just what the gift of man entails, doesn't it? Maybe she ended up with Aragorn afterall.
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Very true Aule, very true.... Forkbeard said that he thought they would all be runited at the end, not just Aragorn and Arwen but the elves as well, a second coming of sorts. I don't know and now we shall never know cause as far as I know Tolkien never wrote what the gift of man fully entailed he hinted but no concrete details... makes you wonder what other ideas Tolkien had that never made it past his imagination.
A huge loss....
Where does all the hate come from.......?
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"So my question is this put yourself in Arwen’s place, imagine that you had the same decision to make... would you give immortality up (to face death & uncertainty) for the possibility of being with your true love?"
Yes. Especially considering that Arwen was 2000-something at the time and have not met true love yet. That was an opportunity of eternity, as opposed to human lifetime.
"What is your rational behind making the decision to either stay immortal or embrace a mortal life?"
If it is rational, it is not love. Also, after falling in love Arwen and Aragorn spent very little time together. They had about 60 years to brood on it and yearn for each other. The difficulties they had to overcome were immense ones. So their love was intensified in a way most people never get to experience.
Was it selfish to give up family? Not very much. I am sure her family understood her reasons and though reluctantly, they did let her stay with Aragorn.
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Thanks very much for repling Snowball-15
Yes. Especially considering that Arwen was 2000-something at the time and have not met true love yet. That was an opportunity of eternity, as opposed to human lifetime.
I've been pondering the question I set in my post as well and I have to say that I am not sure what I would do... certainly my heart tells me that were I in that position I would hope to make the same desicion, but my head tells me think about it is it really worth it? So I am still undecided to a certain extent.
Where does all the hate come from.......?
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snowball-15
(Mon May 19 20:17:43)
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| UPDATED Mon May 19 20:18:00 |
"my head tells me think about it is it really worth it"
That tells me that you are probably not currently madly in love. When you are, you would not have doubts.
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very true snowball.
Where does all the hate come from.......?
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Nothing to say at the moment - but what great commentary! It reminds me of the Talmud in the depths it goes to seeking...
"O calm, dishonourable, vile submission!"
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I only just checked in on the post, thank you for your kind words.... hopefully you will be able to contribute some thoughts yourself as well as I would be most interested to hear them.
If you looked in a mirror and saw your true self what would you think?
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I'm wondering how you're defining the word "selfish". If you mean that she was callously disregarding the feelings of her family, I don't believe that's so. But in my opinion there is really no such thing as a truly selfless act, and in actuality, Arwen did choose to cause them pain for her own benefit. She acted for herself, regardless of how it made others feel (even if she took those feelings into account, her actions were still ultimately self-motivated--even more so, since she knew how much it would hurt them and still chose to stay for her love). There are two ways to read "selfish", and I think she fits one and not the other. The opposite, of course, is "selfless", and she sure as heck wasn't that. True love may be a good reason to be selfish, but it doesn't change the motivating factors.
My impression (and I could be wrong about this) was that in giving up her immortality (whatever that means, and I think based on conversations on this board that no one's really sure) she was giving up going to Mandos and being reborn. That was why her father was so upset--it wasn't just parting throughout life, it was parting throughout the afterlife, and thus "until the end of days". If she was going to just shoot back to Mandos, he wouldn't have been as upset. Given that, when Arwen died she would go wherever men went. So I'm not sure how uncertain her fate was.
But really her lack of immortality is sketchy (does she become mortal? does she die of a broken heart? could she have actually taken the ship to valinor, or was she banned as soon as she made the choice? does the evenstar have something to do with it? etc.) So it's hard to know truly how uncertain her path was, or whether she was knowingly choosing the doom of men to stay with Aragorn throughout time.
Do you realize that you can't play the game of life with sweaty palms?
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Many thanks for replying Samira86
I'm wondering how you're defining the word "selfish". If you mean that she was callously disregarding the feelings of her family, I don't believe that's so. But in my opinion there is really no such thing as a truly selfless act, and in actuality, Arwen did choose to cause them pain for her own benefit. She acted for herself, regardless of how it made others feel (even if she took those feelings into account, her actions were still ultimately self-motivated--even more so, since she knew how much it would hurt them and still chose to stay for her love). There are two ways to read "selfish", and I think she fits one and not the other. The opposite, of course, is "selfless", and she sure as heck wasn't that. True love may be a good reason to be selfish, but it doesn't change the motivating factors.
True I think you maybe hit close to the mark of what I was suggesting... As I said before I do think in one way that Arwen made a huge sacrifice (i.e. giving up immortality) but I also feel that the decision she made caused immeasurable pain to her family... I keep coming back to the fact that selfish isn't exactly the right word that I want to use but I cannot think of any other.
My impression (and I could be wrong about this) was that in giving up her immortality (whatever that means, and I think based on conversations on this board that no one's really sure) she was giving up going to Mandos and being reborn. That was why her father was so upset--it wasn't just parting throughout life, it was parting throughout the afterlife, and thus "until the end of days". If she was going to just shoot back to Mandos, he wouldn't have been as upset. Given that, when Arwen died she would go wherever men went. So I'm not sure how uncertain her fate was.
Regarding immortality the Elves lived forever (well until the end of days) unless they died of either great wounds or grief, if they died their spirit would be returned to the Halls of Mandos in Amman where depending on there conduct during life they were reborn at some point (later if they were "Bad" as in Feanor) by becoming mortal as Arwen's fate was when she died she would not go to the Halls of Mandos as you said.
Excerpt from appendix A - The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen
*Elrond to Aragorn* "Alas my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending" also *Arwen* "She was not yet weary of her days and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her." then later "But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved: and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until the winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent. There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself on Cerin Amroth: and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.
I always thought that the above passage was so sad... and as you say the fate of men was not known after they died... imagine going from being certain you would live the equivalent of forever to knowing you were only going to live for another hundred or so years and then after that who knows.
Where does all the hate come from.......?
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"Boromir, quit trying to cut off Frodo's head ..." ~ Blatant favoritism most annoying.
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I would say that if I were to truly find that one person, then I would make the same decision.
Why?
It is simple. If I could find the one person I could love that much, then the loss of immortality is irrelevant. I would rather spend the 130 years with that person that A&A spent, as opposed to spending eternity alone, and wondering "what might have been."
Yes, it would cause pain for the other "loved ones" in my life, but again, I think that people who truly loved me and wanted my happiness would rather see me deliriously happy for a shorter time, than miserable for the longer.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Thank you for responding Sir_Big_V.
A very good answer and also it examines the other side of the coin that surely if your family truly loved you they would come to terms with the desicion to give up immortality.
Again good answer and thank you for responding... sorry I can't say more but my time is extremely limited at the moment.
If you looked in a mirror and saw your true self what would you think?
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Anytime...
If I miss a thread like this...something deep, meaningful, philosophical, etc that you start, please let me know. I love these discussions.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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