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Board:
Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The (2002)
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The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 17:26:17)
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Reading Homer's "The Odyssey" ("T.O." for the sake of my cold fingers!) today for the second time, I reflected upon the main events of the story. (the first and last time I read T.O. was, at least, five years ago... please forgive me if I err when referring to the plot at any point in this post!) Here is a very basic summary of T.O.

-Odysseus has been in a long war in which he did not want to participate. He was instead bound by an oath (to Menelaus).
-Odysseus wants to go home very badly, but he must face a great many dangers and difficulties. It takes him ten years to finally reach Ithaca, the island in which he rules as king.
-Ithaca is an ungoverned mess because princes hoping for Penelope's (Odysseus's wife) hand are being morons. Odysseus must settle everything before he can have his beloved Ithaca the way it was before the war back.

Then I realized something. LotR is, essentially, very much like T.O.! LotR's basic summary:

-Frodo must bear the Ring to Mordor, with the freedom of Middle-earth bound to the results of his Quest. Though he volunteered for this task of his own accord, it was with reluctance. Also, fate may have been playing in him - in Gondor, there was an old prophecy that said that when Isildur's Bane (the Ring) awoke, the hour of the Halflings has come.
-Frodo would prefer to remain in the Shire. However, during his journey, he is wounded repeatedly (he never fully recovers from any of his wounds), and suffers from the psychological torment that comes with the Ring.
-When he returns, the Shire is in an uproar because of Saruman's brief reign of terror. It is up to Frodo and Co. (Sam, Merry, and Pippin) to make things right, and it is two years before the Shire is how the Hobbits had remembered it.

While there are slight differences, I hope I've made these astonishing similarities clear. Also, while I realize that Tolkien did not mean to copy anyone else's formula for success, I will say that authors of old have always influenced the authors following them (for example, look at how many literary characters are almost exact mirror images of a Greek deity).

Challenge: Can you think of any other piece of literature (nothing too obscure, please) that is surprisingly similar to LotR?


You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Tarlonniel (Thu Jan 23 17:34:19)
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There's one work from which Tolkien very obviously borrowed - Beowulf. IIRC, a few scenes in 'The Hobbit' are taken almost directly from it, and the feast in Theoden's hall at which Eowyn brings around wine is very much in that style.

"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 17:38:54)
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Ah. I haven't begun reading that yet, but, coincidentally, I'm about to.


You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Sneak preview
  by - Tarlonniel (Thu Jan 23 17:54:00)
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For anyone who can handle the obscure English, here's the Beowulf passage that a significant part of 'The Hobbit' was, um, "inspired" by .




Then Beowulf came as king this broad
realm to wield; and he ruled it well
fifty winters, a wise old prince,
warding his land, until One began
in the dark of night, a Dragon, to rage.
In the grave on the hill a hoard it guarded,
in the stone-barrow steep. A strait path reached it,
unknown to mortals. Some man, however,
came by chance that cave within
to the heathen hoard. In hand he took
a golden goblet, nor gave he it back,
stole with it away, while the watcher slept,
by thievish wiles: for the warden's wrath
prince and people must pay betimes!

XXXII

THAT way he went with no will of his own,
in danger of life, to the dragon's hoard,
but for pressure of peril, some prince's thane.
He fled in fear the fatal scourge,
seeking shelter, a sinful man,
and entered in. At the awful sight
tottered that guest, and terror seized him;
yet the wretched fugitive rallied anon
from fright and fear ere he fled away,
and took the cup from that treasure-hoard.
Of such besides there was store enough,
heirlooms old, the earth below,
which some earl forgotten, in ancient years,
left the last of his lofty race,
heedfully there had hidden away,
dearest treasure.....
When the dragon awoke, new woe was kindled.
O'er the stone he snuffed. The stark-heart found
footprint of foe who so far had gone
in his hidden craft by the creature's head. --
So may the undoomed easily flee
evils and exile, if only he gain
the grace of The Wielder! -- That warden of gold
o'er the ground went seeking, greedy to find
the man who wrought him such wrong in sleep.
Savage and burning, the barrow he circled
all without; nor was any there,
none in the waste.... Yet war he desired,
was eager for battle. The barrow he entered,
sought the cup, and discovered soon
that some one of mortals had searched his treasure,
his lordly gold. The guardian waited
ill-enduring till evening came;
boiling with wrath was the barrow's keeper,
and fain with flame the foe to pay
for the dear cup's loss. -- Now day was fled
as the worm had wished. By its wall no more
was it glad to bide, but burning flew
folded in flame: a fearful beginning
for sons of the soil; and soon it came,
in the doom of their lord, to a dreadful end.

XXXIII

THEN the baleful fiend its fire belched out,
and bright homes burned. The blaze stood high
all landsfolk frighting. No living thing
would that loathly one leave as aloft it flew.
Wide was the dragon's warring seen,
its fiendish fury far and near,
as the grim destroyer those Geatish people
hated and hounded. To hidden lair,
to its hoard it hastened at hint of dawn.
Folk of the land it had lapped in flame,
with bale and brand. In its barrow it trusted,
its battling and bulwarks: that boast was vain!



"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
Re: Sneak preview
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 18:00:41)
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Wow. That is definitely too similar to escape suspicion. Thanks for taking the time to type all that up... or copying-and-pasting from a website!

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Sneak preview
  by - Tarlonniel (Thu Jan 23 18:16:40)
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Oh, it was copy and paste, believe me! LOL

I remember the first time I came across that passage; at first I was that Tolkien would so blatantly steal from such a famous work. But now I think it was a brilliant move. In Tolkien's mythology, no doubt the adventures of Bilbo Baggins were an inspiration for that passage, rather than the other way 'round

"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
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Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Dimsah (Thu Jan 23 21:18:38)
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I did hear that a version of Beowulf that was translated by Tolkien will be published some time this year. I'll have to check my resources to verify though.

You fatcats didn't finish your plankton. Now it's all mine
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 17:48:18)
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bump

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 17:52:42)
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This doesn't answer the challenge, but, on the topic of Beowulf:
Beowulf is a Nordic epic. Much of Lord of the Rings is influenced and/or informed by Norse mythology. Also, Elvish runes are based on Norse runes. Also, if you read Norse mythology, you'll see the similarity in the word-forms and name-forms of middle-earth to the linguistics of Norse mythology. One example I remember is that Gil-Galad, the Elf-King, may derive somewhat from the warrior Gilgamesh. I read a book of Norse mythology a long time ago, and it was pretty cool. Another thing that occurs to me is that Norse mythology has stone giants, which are in the Hobbit.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 17:59:30)
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You know what's funny? In my history class, we are sometimes assigned to fill in a blank map, with only the outlines of continents and bodies of water drawn in already. When I flip through my atlas, my eye will always catch the name "Aragon," which, I believe, was somewhere in Spain. Whenever I see it, I think, "OH MY GOSH! Aragorn!" Then I remember, and call myself stupid.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 17:59:43)
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If
you look at this list, you may see some similarity to the names of middle-earth characters. By the way, Gilgamesh is an ancient babylonian hero, I got a little lost there...

Following is a list of some of the major players in Norse mythology and also some of the more enigmatic ones. You will find gods and goddesses, heroes and giants. There are a multitude of other lesser figures which are mentioned throughout other portions of the site.

Aegir Ship-Bane

Aurvandil the Bold

Balder, the Dying God

Bil, Captured by the Moon

Bragi, God of Poetry

Frey, God of Fertility

Freya, Goddess of Fertility & War

Frigg, Mother Goddess

Fulla the Handmaiden

Gefjon, Goddess of Virgins

Heimdall the Watcher

Hel, Goddess of the Underworld
Idun, Goddess of Immortality

Loki the Trickster

Njord of the Beautiful Feet

Odin, God of Vikings

Ran, Goddess of the Drowned

Skadi, Goddess of Skis

Thor, God of Thunder

Tyr the One Handed

Ull, God of Archery



"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Norse names
  by - MonarchOfDoom (Thu Jan 23 18:22:55)
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ARRRRRGH!

The only novels I read are usually by Stephen King or Tom Clancy.

I need to get caught up with the classics...

Run, you pigeons! IT'S ROBERT FROST!!!
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 18:49:49)
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Trivia: The name of that little girl who, with her brother, rode to Edoras to spread the alarm is Freya.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 18:54:15)
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Here's some more interseting trivia for you, about word derivations:

Where the names of the days of the week come from:

Sunday - Sun's Day - literally, day of the sun
Monday - Moon's Day
Tuesday - Tyr's Day, from the Norse Tyr
Wednesday - Woden's Day=Odin's Day, from Norse Odin
Thursday - Thor's Day, from Norse Thor
Friday - Frey's Day, from Norse Frey
Saturday - Saturn's Day, from the Roman Saturn, equivalent to Greek Zeus

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 19:00:59)
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Oh yes, I just learned that! (in an English project presentation, oddly enough... well, we're studying mythology, so...)

Actually, the Roman equivalent of Zeus is Jupiter. Saturn is Cronus, I believe.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 19:06:13)
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Oh yeah, thanks, I forgot.
BTW, if you like this stuff, I took Greek and Roman mythology in college, and I could recommend some of the books we had to read. I really like the heroic epics of Theseus, Perseus, and Hercules, along with the Oddysey. "Clash of the Titans" movie is the story of Perseus.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 19:11:43)
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Oh gosh, I love Greek mythology. If you don't mind, yes, I'd like your recommendations. It may be a few years before I have the time to sit down and read them, but I would appreciate learning the titles of the better books.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 19:17:14)
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OK, give me a little while, I need to look for the books. Mostly they are plays by, um, I'm bad at remebering names, I'll look them up.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Thu Jan 23 19:18:31)
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Sure thing! Thanks!

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Fri Jan 24 13:48:11)
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UPDATED Fri Jan 24 14:02:06

OK, I found my old books. They are:

The Iliad and The Odyssey

Ten plays by Euripides (Alcestis, Medea, Hippolytus, Andromache, Ion, Trojan Women, Electra, The Bacchants, Iphigenia among the Taurians, Iphigenia at Aulis)

The Three Theban Plays by Sophocles (Antigone, Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus)

There are five major heroic epics:

Perseus
Bellerophon
Theseus
The labors of Heracles
Jason and the Argonauts

Traditionally, these were told orally. To get a good account of these, just find a good book on mythology.

Someone else in this thread recommended a good one. My college textbook is a little too academic for my taste. I've seen a lot in the library. In class, our teacher told the stories with slides of classic artwork as his backdrop.

Try to find one where they tell it like a story.

Clash of the Titans movie is the story of Perseus. Pretty good. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0082186
Jason and the Argonauts is also out there, that was a classic when I was a kid. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0057197
I see Jim Henson did Theseus and the Minotaur, I'm gonna have to search that one out.
They did the Odyssey as a miniseries a few years ago, I watched a VHS of that about a year ago. Christopher Lee is in it. Pretty good. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0118414
I see that a movie called Troy is coming out in 2004, with Orlando Bloom as Paris. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0332452

Have fun!

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Wed Jan 29 13:16:49)
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Thanks!

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Wed Jan 29 13:24:21)
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Hahaha, funny. I wonder if there's an Eomer running around on the boards, or if he's taken his exile seriously.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - Tarlonniel (Thu Jan 23 19:40:26)
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Perhaps you've discovered it already, but one of the best Greek mythology resources is Mythology, by Edith Hamilton. It includes almost every Greek myth I've ever heard of, plus some selections from Roman and Norse lore. It's both a fun read and a great reference book to have.

"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
Re: Norse names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Fri Jan 24 09:23:59)
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Oh yes, I've read that. I learned so much from that book! My mom says that that was the book that turned mythology off for her, but it actually got me wanting more... unfortunately I don't know of any other good books. D'Aulaire has a good book, but it's for 10 year olds. For those of you who would like to know more about this book, sorry! I forgot what it's called, and my best friend is borrowing it and hasn't returned it yet.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Greek Mythology
  by - miko4444 (Fri Jul 11 13:17:40)
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I recommend the book on Greek mythology by Robert Graves. He is better known for writing "I, Claudius."

It's a very good read.





"I hope that the forgotten people will not have forgotten how to fight."
Re: Greek Mythology
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Fri Jul 11 13:57:07)
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Oh yes, I've heard of him. Thanks for the recommendation.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Norse names
  by - Mad Dog McLagan (Wed Jul 9 02:40:59)
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I love Theseus!A very underated myth, as well.I haven't read the actual version, but my mum got me the Tony Robinson talking books for kids from the local library.Okay, it's dumbed down, but it's got the whole story there.I also got the Odyssey talking books as well, so I'll be disappointed if Troy comes across as inaccurate!

Believe it or not, the character I really hope will be in it is Philloc Tetes (sp?) who, I remember, was a masterful archer who really hated Odysseus.In the talking books, somehow he got lost from the ship (I think Odysseus kicked him offboard) and was stranded on an island.For some reason (To kill one of the Trojans, I think) they needed to get him back.And they said when they sent the horse in Philloc was really psyched up...so psyched up he was the first one out and tripped, breaking his neck before he even got to kill anyone!

I'm not sure why I want to see him...but I think it's because it'd be best for Oddysseus to have a nemesis character, to balance the film out well.

Sorry for rambling for so long.


Whoah, who spiked the Egg Nog?
Re: Norse names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Thu Jan 23 19:14:55)
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That's cool trivia, about Freya in LotR.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
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Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Sir_Big_V (Fri Jan 24 11:33:28)
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Stone Giants? In The Hobbit? Are you sure you are not thinking of the trolls that turn to stone?

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
Stone Giants in the Hobbit
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Fri Jan 24 11:48:35)
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UPDATED Fri Jan 24 11:49:00

When they are in the Misty Mts., there is a big lightning storm. Bilbo sees stone giants far off in the distance tossing boulders.
It's only mentioned in passing. Since I re-read the book about a month ago, it's still fresh in my memory.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Stone Giants in the Hobbit
  by - Sir_Big_V (Fri Jan 24 12:15:43)
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I remember that scene, and am wondering if that is more imagery, in the same way as in Fotr, the characters spoke of the wrath and personal enmity of Caradhras, which was a mountain peak. Is it just the personification of elements..."Officer, I was driving down the road, and that tree jumped right out of the forest and bit my car, man." (Bill Cosby)or do you think the world has stone giants?
What do you think?

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
Re: Stone Giants in the Hobbit
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Fri Jan 24 12:19:30)
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It seemed like they were real. They even talk about them, that they only come out at night. In a world with goblins and trolls, giants are not so fanciful.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Stone Giants in the Hobbit
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Fri Jan 24 12:26:44)
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Here's a reference.
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/giants.html

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Stone Giants in the Hobbit
  by - Sir_Big_V (Fri Jan 24 22:38:40)
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Great read...
New one on me.


Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - greenleaf_4 (Thu Jan 23 21:24:43)
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While it's definitely not a classic (yet), and my roommate would protest against its ever being considered one, the Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb has some interesting similarities to the kingdom of Rohan. And i know i'm stretching a bit here, but i doubt many of you have actually read the books. so here goes.

King Shrewd: his rule is failing, as old age has come upon him, helped along by poison and his plotting son who lies to him to keep him compliant. He sits around all day mumbling to himself while his son plots to take over the throne. Rereading these books, i keep picturing Theoden when he's still really old, with Wormtongue as his poisoner.

Queen-in-Waiting Kettricken: she's trying to hold onto her position in the kingdom while her father-in-law slowly dies and the prince plots to have her for himself. sounds a lot like Eowyn.

King-in-Waiting Verity: he's trying to protect his kingdom from barbarian invaders that aren't interested in conquering his lands, but rather destroying his people. He leaves on a quest for help and is more or less banished for his trouble. sounds like Eomer, though that proposes an interesting relationship with his sister. but anyway.

Chade: a mysterious figure who seems to know nearly everything that goes on in the castle and the kingdom, and only appears when there is trouble. an old man who wears a long beard and dirty grey robes--also sounds familiar.

Unfortunately for these characters, there is no Aragorn (and his elvish friends, if we follow the movie) to save the day. the rest of the story is significantly different, and maybe i'm making connections that aren't there. but i thought it was interesting.


"I'll tell thee, I cannot be out of the sight of Orlando. I'll go find a shadow, and sigh till he come." --As You Like It
The Hero With a Thousand Faces
  by - the_sea (Mon Jan 27 01:34:49)
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Back in 1949, a man named Joseph Campbell published a book called "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that looked at "hero" stories from around the world. He was interested in how so many stories could have the same formula. He came up with a list of elements that all "hero" stories have in common. BTW, the term "hero story" refers to a story that starts out with an everyday, ordinary character leading a hum-drum life, who is then thrust into an adventure and returns from that adventure as a hero who is forever changed by his experiences. Campbell's analysis was so well done that Lucas even based Star Wars on it! And, yes, Lucas has routinely admitted to this. Sometimes hero stories don't contain every single one of Campbell's elements in them, and the elements are not always in order, but they all contain the same basic line of events he wrote about. Here are the components that Campbell came up with; they are broken down into 3 categories - Departure, Initiation, and Return:

Departure of the main character from his home
1. The Call to Adventure - self-explanatory, I think.
2. Refusal of the Call - self-explanatory, again.
3. "Supernatural" Aid - a powerful, protective person who persuades the main character to go on the adventure and who will look after him/her during the adventure. Think Obi-wan or Gandalf.
4. The Crossing of the First Threshold - The main character leaves home for the first time and goes out into the great unknown, in older stories this often involved crossing a large body of water
5. The Belly of the Whale - To quote Campbell, the main character "is swallowed into the unknown". Those left behind don't know if the main character is dead or alive. An example from "The Hobbit" would be when Bilbo is lost down in Gollum's cave.


Initiation - where we see the main character change from an ordinary person into a hero
1. The Road of Trials - the main character is typically helped to overcome these trials by a group of companions as well as the "supernatural" figure introduced in part 3 above
2. The Meeting With the Goddess -Or in the case of a female hero, the God. Forces the main character to face absolute truth, to accept all the bad & evil forces at work alongside the good forces.
3. Temptation - Usually in the form of a woman, such as Calypso was for Odysseus. Forces the hero to realize his weaknesses; he must accept his weaknesses and choose to carry on with his quest none-the-less.
4. Atonement - The hero gains the faith that he needs to fulfill his mission and can then sacrifice himself for the greater good.
5. Apotheosis - The main character has now been raised to divine status. Not only is he powerful and in control, but he also has finally found balance and is at peace. This is the point where he becomes "the glorious hero."
6. The Ultimate Boon - A period of rest and rejuvenation after the adventure is over but before the hero returns home.


Return
1. Refusal to Return - self-explanatory, I think.
2. The Magic Flight - Often involves the hero being chased by a monster. The hero and his companions might use magical objects or clever traps to slow down their pursuer.
3. Rescue from Without - Other characters step in and rescue the hero. Sometimes this can be as simple as persuading the hero to leave the Ultimate Boon stage.
4. The Crossing of the Return Threshold
5. Master of the Two Worlds - This is the point where you really realize how much the main character has changed and grown. To quote Tolkien, at the end of "The Hobbit" - Gandalf looked at him. 'My dear Bilbo!' he said. 'Something is the matter with you! You are not the hobbit that you were.' The hero is now able to use all of the experiences he gained on his adventure to build a bright, new future. In the case of LOTR this comes into play for Merry & Pippin during the cleansing of the Shire.
6. Freedom to Live - ...however the hero chooses.




I found out about Campbell's list during a mythology class a couple of years ago. It's fascinating how many stories follow the pattern!

If anyone's curious, here's a link that shows how both Star Wars and The Matrix followed Campbell's formula http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/myth.html

And here's a link that explains the stages of Campbell's list much more eloquently than I can. Plus it uses Star Trek as an example. http://www.in-con.com/vmeredith/primer.html

Re: The Hero With a Thousand Faces
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Mon Jan 27 01:45:45)
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This is an awesome post, The_Sea.
Thanks for your wonderful synopsis! I'm learning!
Also, finally someone is answering Eowyn's original post.

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: The Hero With a Thousand Faces
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Mon Jan 27 12:36:46)
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"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
One more
  by - the_sea (Mon Jan 27 01:43:30)
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UPDATED Mon Jan 27 02:02:59

I don't know how interesting any of this is to you guys, but while I'm sharing what I learned in mythology class about the similarities in hero stories I figured I'd add one more famous analysis.

Lord Raglan made a list of components he felt all hero stories have. In addition to Star Wars, I know that a few other stories follow this pattern, such as the stories of Oedipus, Moses, Zeus, and of course Jesus (it's not my intention to turn this into a religious discussion, though). Copied directly from a hand-out I got in class, here is Lord Raglan's list:

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin
2. his father is a king, and
3. often a near relative of his mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of god
6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather to kill him, but
7. he is spirited away, and
8. reared by foster parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. upon reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and/or giant, dragon, wild beast, etc.
12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
15. prescribes laws, but
16. later he loses favour with the gods and/or his subjects and
17. is driven from the throne and city, after which
18. he meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.


To me, this list doesn't seem as widely applicable as Campbell's, but I felt like posting it anyways.
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Broc (Tue Jan 28 10:59:35)
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Good thread!

~ Broc
Bump (nm)
  by - the_sea (Mon Feb 3 00:17:27)
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_
So...
  by - kiplingkat (Mon Feb 3 00:22:11)
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UPDATED Mon Feb 3 00:23:25

If The Odyssey is T.O. The Illiad would be T.I. ....

So would The Aneid be T.A.?

Sorry just feeling silly.

Personally, as Tolkien was a scholar in the Clasics and Mythology as well as ancient languages, I'm sure he borrowed from many sources. Some conciously and some unconciously.
Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - adalheidis (Mon Feb 3 17:39:08)
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Follow-up to DolphinJazz's lists:

Imagine my surprise on first reading Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda (Icelandic, early 13th century) when I came across the following passage:


Then the gods seated themselves on their thrones and held counsel, and remembered how dwarves had quickened in the earth and under the soil like maggots in flesh. ...Modthsognir was the most famous, and next to him Durin... And the sibyl gives these as their names:

Nyi, Nithi,
Northri, Suthri,
Austri, Vestri
Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar, Nain,
Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bafur,
Bombor, Nori,
Ori, Onar,
Oin, Mjothvitnir,
Vig and Ganndalf,
Vinndalf, Thorin,
Fili, Kili,
Fundin, Vali,
Thror, Throin,
Thekk, Lit, Vit,
Nyr, Nyrath,
Rekk, Rathsvith....

Draupnir, Dolgthvari,
Haur, Hugstari,
Hlethjolf, Gloin,
Dori, Ori,
Duf, Andvari,
Heptifili,
Har, Sviar....

Skirvir, Virvir,
Skafith, Ai,
Alf, Ingi,
Eikinskjaldi,
Fal, Frosti,
Fith, Ginnar.


If none of these names seem familiar to you, read the Hobbit. (However, if you don't recognize any names in the 11th line, you may have a problem.) I included the whole list as a source of many fabulous usernames for anyone who wants a new one. Anyway, in case anyone is not familiar with it, the Prose Edda includes a wonderful telling of old Norse mythology from soup to nuts. Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0460876163/qid=1044322477/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-8025492-3810328

____________________________
They are fierce folk when roused.
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Mon Feb 3 17:46:30)
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Wow! Thanks!

My history teacher showed us a pic of the old Norse runes - it's called the Runic language. I leaned over to my friend and said, "They look a lot like Elvish runes."

Just at that moment, my teacher (everyone knows I'm a Ringnut: even all the teachers, which is kinda pathetic) said, "They look kinda like Tolkien's, don't they?" Then he looked in my direction, and everyone glanced at me. I started laughing so hard. He then mentioned that Tolkien based the Elvish runes (not the script) on the Runic language.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - BeornTheBee-man (Mon Feb 3 17:49:54)
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Wow! Every one of the dwarfs from the Hobbit! I think I'll be giving both Eddas a try.

BTW, Frosti of course went on to be a snowman, but that is another story...

"Why is it that we park in the driveway, yet drive on the parkway?"
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - Tarlonniel (Mon Feb 3 17:53:28)
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And Alf eventually got his own TV show

"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - Tarlonniel (Mon Feb 3 17:51:57)
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Now that's interesting! Maybe Tolkien didn't have as much imagination as we've been giving him credit for - he just knew what to steal from where

An English version can be found on-line here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/index.htm

"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - Lady-Eowyn (Mon Feb 3 17:57:19)
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Nah, he just borrowed some interesting excerpts and names and then compiled them into a wonderful series of books.

Think Shakespeare - how many of "his" plays were actually written by him? Most of his plays are just cops off some unknown poet's verses, or were based on a not-so-successful play/poem.

You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
Re: Source of Dwarves' Names
  by - adalheidis (Mon Feb 3 17:59:17)
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Ooh, nice find, Tarlonniel. The part I quoted is from the "Gylfaginning" link, or "The Deluding of Gylfi."

____________________________
They are fierce folk when roused.
Bump-a-matic
  by - kiplingkat (Fri Feb 7 10:42:31)
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nm
bump
  by - athene-5 (Thu Mar 20 08:30:47)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
Re: bump
  by - paul hawthorne (Thu Mar 20 19:33:40)
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interesting post.........
Re: bump
  by - paul hawthorne (Thu Mar 20 22:32:28)
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nm...
bump
  by - athene-5 (Sun May 4 11:51:26)
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bump

"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
Adoptive Bumpkin #1 (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Sat May 10 19:48:34)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - srstone71 (Sat May 10 21:21:13)
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You forgot the best line of the Odyssey, "Discus Stu was talking to you"
hahahahahaha ahhh the joys of Simpsons parodys
Re: The Odyssey vs. LotR (spoilers)
  by - Sir_Big_V (Wed May 21 21:15:11)
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
maintainance bump (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Sun May 25 11:47:09)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
right, who stepped on the newbie-button? :P a bump (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Tue Jun 3 04:17:51)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
a bump in time saves nine (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Sun Jun 15 03:35:00)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
ay umpbay (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Sun Jun 29 12:22:54)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
Voilá le bump. Jolie, n'est-ce pas? (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Wed Jul 9 02:04:48)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
und ein Schubs hier (nm)
  by - bluefirepixie (Sun Jul 20 13:39:23)
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...And you have my bow...
Now give it back!
 
 
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