Some Spoilers lie ahead!
I saw The Whalerider this weekend, and being the obsessive Ringnut that I am, could not help noticing some slight parallels to LOTR. Without spoiling the movie for those who have not seen it yet, the story, set in the modern-day Maori population of New Zealand, is about a young girl, Pai, with a special purpose in life, one forbidden to her by those who would keep her in a more traditional role.
Eowyn immediately came to mind, for she also was a young woman, set aside for a special purpose in life, and was nearly prevented from fulfilling that purpose by the good intentions of her Uncle, King Theoden and her brother, Eomer. What struck me about Eowyn and Paika is that both girls instinctively rejected the conventional role of proper women in their culture, and pursued a warrior’s skills. Both girls defied the constraints of their society, and eventually disobeyed their rulers in a compelling need to fulfill a destiny even the girls did not fully comprehend.
But most striking about these two girls is that they both fulfilled a prophecy, and in doing so, brought about a change for their people.
Now, LOTR was written back in the 50’s and WhaleRider is a contemporary story, but as both were filmed just recently and are in the theatres now, I’m wondering about this – that it took a prophecy and the willingness to live outside her own defined role in order for each of these girls to live life on her own terms. On the surface, it looks like a strong feminist statement is being made, but in each story it needed a supernatural break-through, the blessing of the Gods, for each girl to come into her own and to be accepted as her own person.
Is this just another example of “the male gaze” phenomenon in film and literature, or are these stories making a statement about how women are regarded even now, as they attempt to step out of the traditional roles? Is the woman who succeeds still regarded as an exceptional case, set aside from the rest of women in some sort of special category, and accepted because she’s been ‘blessed by the Gods” (accepted by the male world).
I was wondering if we could talk about this without having a gender war? 
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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When I saw whale rider I did not even think of comparing it to LOTR.
Yes there are similarities between Pai and Eowyn. Both are held back in their traditional roles by males. Eowyn by her uncle when he wont let her fight in the war and Pai by her grandfather who wont accept that Pai is the born leader for there people even when all the signs are there.
Did you enjoy Whale rider?
Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
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I totally loved it! This is the kind of movie that I think a lot of LOTR fans would like, precisely because of the way it portrays the connection between the physical and hyper-real worlds. There were very few young people in the audience, which surprised me, as it has appeal for most ages. [smle]
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I haven't seen Whale Rider but plan on it. I personally feel that it has a lot to do with your last paragraph--they are seen as exceptional or in a special category.
I'll use an example that drives me up the wall. When a woman does something tough or brave, someone (usually a man) says that "she has balls," or that she plays/kicks butt/drives "like a man." Do something tough and it's equated with being manly, and the view seems to be that bravery or toughness are not something both sexes possess. In stories like these there has to be some supernatural thing or force that would cause her to do that--it makes it more palatable rather than accepting the fact that not every woman is suited to the prescribed role given to women in that society.
I'm like a mosquito in a nudist camp-I know what I ought to do but don't know where to begin
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You understand my point perfectly. While I love both stories and the heroines ae terrific, it just seems that we can't get away from the portrayal of strong or heroic women as being something "special". After the movie, I asked a friend if this was a feminist movie or not, since the lead character was a girl and she did something very extraordinary. Between us, we could not decide if this made a positive statement about women or a negative statement about society!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I guess you could say it is both. There needs to be more positive portrayals of women, but do you then accept any positive portrayals, even if they are shown as exceptions to the rule? It reminds me of how Russell Means along with the American Indian Movement were planning on banning Dances With Wolves when it came out, because they felt like it went too far the opposite direction from the ignorant savage stereotype to over-romantizing Native American culture. They finally decided that a positive portrayal however romantized was better than the opposite or nothing at all.
I'm like a mosquito in a nudist camp-I know what I ought to do but don't know where to begin
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I think that positive portrayals are better than nothing, of course, and I'm not suggesting that we not have movies and books like LOTR or Whalerider. But it's also important to look at the subtext of any story and try to puzzle out what it's saying in its broader context. The hero is almost always a positive statement, but what is the story itself saying? What I think I am seeing in recent popular movies is a story about one woman who breaks out of tradition in a world where that is consider unusual  . Where it is still tapu for other women to do the same.
The next question is, have there been any popular stories or films in which a woman succeeds on her own terms, without 'divine intervention'?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Possibly Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Definitely Ripley from Aliens. And as much as I hate to say this, maybe Charlie's Angels. But then these, except for Hidden Dragon are modern stories, if you're talking about older stories, I don't know--I'm not coming up with any at the moment.
I'm a study of a man in chaos in search of frenzy.
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Those are good examples. I'd forgotten about Ripley- she's a true heroine. I did like CTHD very much as the women seemed to be well-accomplished on their own.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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On the danger of getting burnt at the stake, I'd say Xena. She's the only heroine who doesn't define herself through any male perspective, nor is she defined, sanctioned or 'made' by males. And she bears the the rare and rebellious mark of the 'morally questionable' in a patriarchic world.
sorry... *blush*
unsuitable
Schogger13
Truth is only a day long. Tomorrow you'll have to ask again.
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Why would mentioning Xena get you torched? I've never watched the show, so you'll have to explain to me what you mean.
But if she's a woman living on her own terms, I approve of her story.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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SSSHHH!! Not so loud! 
*checking the surroundings suspiciously and moving closer to whispering distance*
The walls have ears! 
Mentioning the the name of the Warrior Princess in such cultured surroundings is like sacriledge. Keep it under your hat...  ...but I'm a fan.
Yup...,and they don't come any more independent than her. 
Oh..., and if someone asks for me..., I wasn't here!
*sneaking off*
Schogger13
Truth is only a day long. Tomorrow you'll have to ask again.
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Well, obviously I've been missing something. I'll have to catch the reruns. She sounds like my kind of woman.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Could be.
But fairness dictates to warn ya. The show's definitely an aquired taste. It's very tongue-in-cheek, a bit camp, especially where the costumes are concerned, and doesn't give an owl's hoot about sticking to the facts or chronology of history or mythology. In one ep you're in Troy, where Xena helps her old pal Helena against the Greeks, and in the next she gets to tackle Julias Caesar (played by Karl Urban, btw). Bruce Campbell as the King Of Thieves is more like a swashbuckler in a puffy shirt, rather than a prime example of Greek heroism, and the Amazons look like proof that Hugh Hefner had his first mansion in ancient Greece.
But one never knows with Xena. The show can turn on a penny in a second. It's got some seriously excellent dramatic eps as well.
I know, amongst 'serious' Fantasy fans it's the 'in thing' to look down on the show as mere campy trash, and I can't really defend my point with logic and with a few sentences, but if one's prepared to skip a few preconceptions, giving it a try is definitely worth it.
Oops... gotta rush...
But I might pester you with a few more details later.
take care
Schogger13
Truth is only a day long. Tomorrow you'll have to ask again.
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 UPDATED Sun Jun 29 19:29:45 |
This message has been deleted by an administrator
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Thanks, LoH! "We're still waiting on the first woman President."
I wonder what sort of prophetic breakthrough that's going to require! 
You are right in that more and more women are succeeding, but I somehow feel that we still aren't getting credit for succeeding on our own merits, but are still all regarded as "special cases".
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I know that I am going to get a lot of knickers in a twist with what I am about to say, but I will justify it, so read the whole post before you get upset.
Those of us that have read the books know that Eowyn has a destiny to fulfil, but on the evidence of TTT and the standard of acting of Miranda Otto (Eowyn) to call her a heroine is stretching the point somewhat. If you purely take the role she had and the way she acted it out it didn't paint her as a heroine at all.
All she does during the film is look dewey eyed at Aragorn, pout at not being allowed to accompany the men and generally blend pretty adeptly into the background!
Having said this, this could be a film-makers ploy to make her "hero" moment seem even bigger than it is. I have to say that even when reading the books, I can't say that Eowyn's act made me think "wow". Or even "WOW"! In the scale of things it was a victory for her, but the the grand scheme of things, would it have changed the fate of the One Ring? No. Did it contribute to making the One Rings destruction easier? No.
I am not engaging in a "gender-war" as athene puts it, merely pointing out what I think is pretty obvious. What I find interesting is that athene needs to put the line about "gender-wars" in at all. Could it be that Tolkien wrote so little for the women to "crow" about that they have to cling on to such small victories?
I expect a lot more from Miranda Otto in ROTK. It wont ruin my appreciation of the film, but she starts from such a long way back in the "star stakes" that she needs to put in a great performance to catch other lead males up and draw attention to her charactor.
Here's hoping....
http://members.fortunecity.com/tolkienlovers The IMDb Ringnuts website
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Aragorn, I can't believe...!  
Let me calm my nerves before I really reply... calm... calm... calm...
All right. In the grand scheme of things, Éowyn did a LOT. For one thing, she saved the dying body of Théoden. The Witch-king was about to make Théoden juice, but she put herself between her "lord and kin" and the WK.
It is my private belief that, had the WK been the victor of the skirmish, he'd have destroyed Aragorn. Seriously. If he were not destroyed by Yours Truly, he'd have continued leading the battle. Minas Tirith might have been destroyed. Éomer would have seen Aragorn coming, yes, but the WK might have put an end to the world of Men right there. Until he was destroyed, Sauron's forces had the upper hand. After Éowyn accomplished her deed, the forces of Mordor had a serious check on their morale; they were finished off by Aragorn and Éomer. But if the WK lived on, the forces of Mordor would have been going on at full speed, the Men would have been overwhelmed, and the WK macing people wouldn't have helped matters.
Éowyn's portrayal in TTT was to emphasise the dramatic changes her role in the history of Middle-earth takes in RoK. It's the element of surprise, for the unread audience.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Very good Post Eowyn...
I hadn't seen it that way, but your argument has made me look at it in a different light. I can't say I am completely won over to your point-of-view, but I will bear it in mind when I next read LOTR.
I hope other people learn an interesting lesson here. Anger does not win arguments. Clear heads do. Well done Eowyn (I hope I don't sound patronising here, because I don't mean to).
http://members.fortunecity.com/tolkienlovers The IMDb Ringnuts website
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You tell him, Shield Maiden of Rohan! 
I agree with you- Eowyn turned the tide at Minas Tirith. By destroying, with a little help from Merridoc, the great Witch King, she left his army essentially leaderless, and demoralized, creating the gap in the offense that led to a victory by the 'good guys'. And she rid the world of a terrible enemy. Eowyn, in ROTK, will be (listen up, PJ) a true hero.
Aragorn, yes, women do have to pay attention to our heroines because they are so few. The question I'm raising here is whether even these stories of remarkable heroines are still delivering an equally powerful message that the world considers them to be 'assisted' in special ways and not representative of what women are capable of doing. For contrast, Boromir didn't need any divine prophecies in order to be a hero.
The 'gender wars' comment was a reference to a thread we had last summer in which a real war broke out. I think someone actually ended up being banned and those of us around at the time will never forget the episode. So- we tread carefully into gender topics now-adays and hoist the 'no gender wars here, please' ensign before we start. I guess if you weren't there, it wouldn't sound as funny as it was meant.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Well, seeing as how there are only about four women in LOTR--Rosie Cotton (who is featured very very little), Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn--I would say that, yes, Eowyn's act is something to "cling" to. And while what she did may not have contributed to the destruction of the ring, the event was still very significant--she went head to head with the witch king and won, no one else could say that (except maybe Merry).
I agree with you about Miranda Otto, but I think that is largely PJ's fault. He could have chosen to her fighting in the warg attack, or doing something to show her fighting skill, rather than have her huddling down in the caves with the other women--especially since he significantly changed the way events happened in those cases.
I'm a study of a man in chaos in search of frenzy.
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Interesting that this has been brought up. We know that Eowyn was a Shield Maiden, a trained warrior, but we see little evidence of that in the movie. We do see her leadership abilities, however. I wonder if PJ is merely building some dramatic tension into the story by withholding this aspect of Eowyn until her great moment, giving the character some time to build before our eyes. It's also going to be necessary to understand her gentler side when she chooses her final destiny.
Eowyn's story is so remarkable, in a way, the focus of the story shifts through her to the future of the humans. I hope that PJ does it justice.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I think that's what PJ is doing - keeping her fighting abilities secret so as to surprise the unread audience and tell them, "Ha! You weren't expecting that; now go read the book!"  It's the element of surprise...
He had better do it justice; I'll hunt him down and torture him over hot coals if he doesn't! 
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Here I can completely agree with Eowyn! I now believe this part of the story to be pivotal. He could do a wonderful job with all three movies, but if he gets this one bit wrong, it's going to leave a very sour taste in the mouth.
I wasn't here when the gender war broke out. Anybody brave enough to outline what the argument was over and why someone got so upset that they got banned over it?
http://members.fortunecity.com/tolkienlovers The IMDb Ringnuts website
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We had several posts going at that time in which we were discussing whether women were disadvantaged by a male-dominated society, whether women could lift weights like men, how people could improve their lot in life through hard work, how the playing field isn't level....those kinds of things. It was pretty civil. Then someone started a more specific gender-differences post, and in a very short time, things got nasty. Tempers flared and insults were flung, and very unkind things were said. I recall seeing someone assert that someone else should be 'neutered' (they weren't quite so nice about it) and then that person seems to have disappeared. We think they were banned. They never came back. So now, the whole episode has become sort of a legendary moment in the board's history- "remember the 'gender wars' and let's not go there again!"
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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jimeous
5 hours ago (Tue Aug 19 16:26:15)
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You must be mistaking what Tolkien had Eowyn do in RoTK for her abilities in TTT.
In TTT her closest to showing she had skill was she could dress the part :)
She may have been able to spar with Aragorn, as the movie, but Tolkien doesn't have her do that in TTT
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I read an article in People about that movie during one of my many class cuts, and it was quite interesting. Was it based on a novel? I'd like to read it..
Hem, hem, hem.
"HAND, Mr. Potter!" sang Professor Umbridge.  DIE!!!
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athene, I think you're following me! This is the second time I've seen a movie on the weekend, only to find you've posted about it early the next week!
 mindlessmunkey
you don't know how lucky you are being a munkey ~ because consciousness is a terrible curse
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Great minds, mm! Did you like this movie?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I certainly did.
I went in with quite high expectations, as a few friends had recommended it to me. But I was half worried it would be really over-the-top and syrupy. Often those "small child overcomes the odds to achieve their rightful destiny" films are way emotionally manipulative and sickly sweet.
However, Whale Rider is handled with such restraint, subtlety and authenticity that it didn't miss a beat. It had me feeling for the characters, without making me feel like I had to. I got completely engrossed in the story and the character interplay ~ which was handled brilliantly.
Did you notice that Grant Major was Production Designer for both Whale Rider and LotR?
mindlessmunkey
you don't know how lucky you are being a munkey ~ because consciousness is a terrible curse
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To be honest, during the credits, I was swept away by the music and didn't notice Major. No wonder the movie has such an incredible, rich feel to it.
I loved The Whale Rider, of course,despite my carping about how women are portrayed in film in general. And I agree with everything you said about it. It's really the sort of movie that Tolkien lovers will like- reasonable realism combined with myth, densely layered with subtext, and subtly detailed. You always sense there is more to the story than what you see. Filmed beautifully, acted beautifully. I don't buy a lot of DVDs but this will be on the Santa list for sure.
So- what movie are we going to see this weekend?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Great post athene, I haven't seen Whalerider yet but I intend to if it shows at a screen near me.
Anyway your post got me to thinking I wonder what Tolkien made of the Womens Suffrage movement after all he lived through that period so he must have had some opinion on it. It also got me thinking of paralells I know that Tolkien said his work was not alegorical but I think it would be naive to say that his works were not influenced by his life experiences in any way and that got me to thinking, if you look at the suffrage movement this was a group of women who did extraordinary things to get equality for women... they eventually got the vote (I think your still waiting on true equality) and in doing so many performed heroic and one tragic (that comes to mind) deeds (The tragic one most obviously being the lady that ran in front of King George's Horse in the Gradn National and died from her injuries). So I was wondering was Tolkiens portrayal of Eowyn the Lady that had to break the mould as it were to fight for her rights do you think that could have been influenced by his feelings about the suffrage movement.
It is maybe stretching it a bit but let me know what you think.
www.oxfam.org Lets give peace a chance  !
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Wow, Elwe-Singollo! (I love that name). I think you're right in noting that Tolkien had to have been influenced by the events of his lifetime. I hadn't thought of the Suffrage movement but he did expereience it all the way through. I think he was also influenced by a young woman in his family to include a heroic female.
I've always felt that Tolkien really liked and admired women, contrary to his misogenist friend CS Lewis, and that he would have approved of the feminist movement. Also, because of his Christian beliefs, he would have believed in one having a special 'calling' or ordained destiny, and that is why he had Eowyn, the shieldmaiden, pre-destined to slay the Witch King.
My point, which I've not always been making very well in this thread, is what do stories like Eowyn's or Pai's have to say about us ordinary, unfated women? The ones who, as you say, are still waiting?
I think you will love The Whale Rider. It's really the kind of story that will appeal to Ringnuts and Tolkienists.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Ahhhhhh... and here was I thinking I could get away without answering the central question firstly though.
Also, because of his Christian beliefs, he would have believed in one having a special 'calling' or ordained destiny, and that is why he had Eowyn, the shieldmaiden, pre-destined to slay the Witch King.
I'd never thought of it that way before but I see what you mean.
anyway.
My point, which I've not always been making very well in this thread, is what do stories like Eowyn's or Pai's have to say about us ordinary, unfated women? The ones who, as you say, are still waiting?
That ordinary, unfated women don't make good viewing sorry only joking please don't lynch me  . Anyway seriously speaking it is strange to think that perhaps what we see in these films is a reflection on the views of our world with regards to women. Although we have just been through a period where everyone was expected to be "politically correct" which should surely have meant that equality to women was the norm the problem with that period is that it was easy to say that oh yes look how "P.C." I am but most people were doing just that, only saying it not meaning it their views had not truly changed to be more tolerant and give more equality they were as it were saying one thing and doing another wearing the mask of "P.C.ness" for convenience (just a small aside while I agreed with some of the sentiments of P.C. I cannot say that I was the biggest supporter as I always felt the whole premise was ultimately hollow). What does the film reflect about the many women who are still waiting.... unfortunately I think that the struggle is still there, that oftentimes in this world for a women to "succeed" she may have to work that extra 10, 20, 25 even 50% harder than a man might have to be viewed as succeeding, not always but even some of the time is to much. Is it right to portray things in that way I think both yes and no, I think yes in that people now seem to be accepting the status quo (no not the ageing rock band ) accepting the quasi-equality that women have at the moment as true equality so maybe if this film reflects current attitudes it will remind women (and men) that the good fight is still there to be fought I also think that it could be a bad as it could maybe discourage people from fighting that self same fight because they may feel what is the point if it is going to be that difficult to make a success of yourself. The other thing speaking of success I am thinking is that success is a very subjective word but in our society we sometimes have preconceived conceptions of what a success is... perhaps that also is a part of the problem but that maybe for a different thread and I'm running out of time now. Oh well I don't know if any of that made any sense but let me know what you think.
www.oxfam.org Lets give peace a chance !
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schogger13
(Thu Jul 3 05:12:20)
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It's odd..., I mean, really odd. The biggest gripe I've always had with Tolkien's world, is how he depicts the women..., if at all. Through the first read I couldn't help thinking "Boy, you REALLY don't like 'em, do you?", and this impression hasn't changed or lessened one bit in later years.
I'll try to explain. Let's take the 4 women he actually has granted any visibility at all. The lover, the devoted wife, the uber-mother(saint) and the daughter.
The first doesn't grow beyond a mere plot device. Tolkien's language totally dries up the moment Arwen appears. It's as if he rushed through and ticked the appropriate box on the mythological archetype list. Can't have an epic legend without at least one 'great' love, can you? It's obvious that his heart isn't in it. Arwen definitely gets the most lifeless and sterile treatment of all 4. Almost entirely descriptive and without a chance to 'make herself' visible, let alone pose a 'threat'.
Then there's Tom's goldielocks, the ideal wife. There, Tolkien suddenly breaks out into lyrical overdrive. It becomes extremely difficult to dodge the impression that he put most of himself into Tom Bombadil and his Utopia of an ideal marriage as the last fortress against sinful/evil influences from outside. Goldie's clealy his 'earthly' ideal of the pure and virtuous wife/uber-mother.
The etheral variation is of course Galadriel - the saint, the body-less, pure enchantress (in classical opposition to the feared, 'sinful' enchantress with a body and a spirit that isn't determined/controlled through male perception.) Here, Tolkien again breaks into song - admiration and idealization... worship. The high song on Galadriel's representation of nature stays completely spiritual and 'harmless', though. In this respect Tolkien is further away from existing pre-Christian lore than anywhere else. The female element in its entirety and all its aspects is totally defused. Kali-Ma got her teeth pulled. Nature becomes a sterilized Bonsai tree.
Which leaves the daughter. Eowyn. She actually gets to DO something. She's the only one who's a bit more than a static icon. Sounds good so far, doesn't it? Trouble is, I have greatest difficulties to stomach Tolkien's patronizing tone whenever she enters the stage. Before the final battle, it's almost as if he's constantly ruffling her hair. "Aww, isn't she adorable, the little rascal? Look, how daddy's favourite plays with her little sword! Now, don't be naughty and bother Aragorn. He has higher things to worry about." Frankly, how Aragorn treated her sometimes, I was surprised that she didn't finally snap and set fire to the smug git. Sure, I'm exaggerating, here, but the overall tone in which Eowyn is shown has nothing to do with what one would call an independent spirit. That becomes apparent when her role switched from tom-boy daughter to future wife and fatherless woman. Now Tolkien totally loses interest and only goes through the motions. The 'wooeing-scenes' of that couple belong to the stiffest and most lifeless exercises he has ever written.
All this wouldn't stand out so much in my perception if Tolkien hadn't proved to be able to fire on all cylinders where his fav subjects are concerned. Half a paragraph of his high song on friendship amongst the lads, for instance, has more passion than anything else. One can 'HEAR' what's closest to his heart... and what's not.
Well..., I've learned to live with it and wind down my expectations on a few aspects, but there are days when I simply miss Artemis terribly.
odd-angled
Schogger13
Truth is only a day long. Tomorrow you'll have to ask again.
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you still owe me a reply .
www.oxfam.org Lets give peace a chance !
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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sinaes
(Tue Aug 5 01:40:15)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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Oog make mission statement.
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sinaes
19 hours ago (Tue Aug 19 02:17:16)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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Scretta
4 hours ago (Tue Aug 19 17:22:32)
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How did I miss this the first time around? Very interesting topic Athene. I think in a sense men still do not see women as their equal. Worse yet I believe a lot of women do not see themselves as an equal. So therefor when one breaks out of the "mold" it is seen as something special and unique.
In film when a women because strong and a fighter, this becomes sexy to the guys. It is shown as more as an allure than a inner strength.
I honestly believe that one of the few well done female characters was Scully in the x-files. She was a better shot than Molder. She was smart, independent and logical. She was also real. She had volubilities. I really miss her character because I thought she was so unique on tv. She was an average looking woman who became beautiful and sexy to men everywhere because of inner beauty. Amazing!
In most stories strong women also have to be exceptionally beautiful. That is part of their power to men. All of that comes across as a little sexiest to me.
Anyway, great topic Athene.
Strange days indeed, most peculiar momma
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