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Lady-Eowyn
(Fri Jun 13 10:08:10)
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 UPDATED Fri Jun 13 10:34:31 |
Okay, yeah, the subject's a little weird. But I'm feeling weird to-day (when do I not feel weird?), so... anyway, I'll get serious.
Let us observe the three Ring-bearers, after Isildur, and how the Ring immediately affected each of them. (note: just fyi, this post is based entirely on the book)
Sméagol
When he approached his friend Déagol from behind after the latter had found the Ring in the River Anduin, Sméagol was obviously affected by the Ring almost immediately. He began to speak the way Gollum became known for:
' "Give us that, Déagol, my love," said Sméagol, over his friend's shoulder.
' "Why?" said Déagol.
' "Because it's my birthday, my love, and I wants it," said Sméagol.
' "I don't care," said Déagol. "I have given you a present already, more than I could afford. I found this, and I'm going to keep it."
' "Oh, are you indeed, my love," said Sméagol; and he caught Déagol by the throat and strangled him, because the gold looked so bright and beautiful. Then he put the ring on his finger.' (The Shadow of the Past, FotR)
Tolkien does not tell us how Sméagol spoke prior the finding of the Ring, but one can assume that he spoke properly, as did Déagol. However, as you can see, when he saw the Ring, his way of speaking changed. We do not know whether he called others "my love" until then, but if he were close friends with Déagol, surely his manner of speaking would be similar to Déagol's. It is interesting to deduce that later, "my love" was replaced by "my preciousss."
Bilbo
After he escaped from Gollum and the orc-guards, he was reunited with the rest of the party. He lied about how he had acquired the Ring - he said that it was a present from Gollum, for winning the Riddle-game - when he'd actually picked it up from the floor of the cave. As Gandalf observed, Bilbo's lies and Gollum's lies - both involving a "present" - were too close for comfort.
Frodo
The initial effect upon him was not very strong. For nine years Frodo kept the Ring under his possession, never using it. When Gandalf returned from hunting for Gollum and searching among the scrolls in Minas Tirith, he cast the Ring into Frodo's little hearth-fire.
To Frodo's astonishment and distress the wizard threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire. Frodo gave a cry and groped for the tongs; but Gandalf held him back. (The Shadow of the Past, FotR)
While Frodo's reaction to Gandalf's doing may have been because he treasured the Ring as an heirloom from Bilbo, the Ring also had some effect on the hobbit. Frodo has known Gandalf for almost all his life, and has come to trust him like no other. He would know that Gandalf would not purposely destroy any of his possessions; his cry would have been the result of his "astonishment and distress," but I think that his groping for the tongs was the result of the call of the Ring.
Why did the Ring set itself to work so quickly? What made it do so? Do you think the Ring was working with its master, Sauron, or was it working independently to return to Sauron?
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Hi Eowyn!! great post!
I think that since the ring holds so much of Sauron's power, and as Gandalf and others said, it has a will of its own, that evilness attracted the worst side of every person.
I don't think that Sauron was "controlling" the ring from the distance, I think the ring himself was looking for a bearer who would take it right back to Sauron, I also think that's the reason why the watcher in the water, the troll and maybe even the Balrog were attracted to the fellowship. But if Sauron would have been controlling the ring, he would have never wanted it to go anywhere near a wizard like Gandalf or someone like Galadriel.
Smile... tomorrow will be worse
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Thanks for replying, Shakra! And thanks for making a few points clear, these especially:
that evilness attracted the worst side of every person.
(that's a little creepy!  )
if Sauron would have been controlling the ring, he would have never wanted it to go anywhere near a wizard like Gandalf or someone like Galadriel.
(I never thought of it that way!)
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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Shicashu did a great job in explaining, yet I feel compelled to add my 2 cents in.
The Ring is definitely like a drug. A very addictive, destructive drug. You don't even have to use it to get addicted to it. The mere sight ensnares its victims. And, just like any other drug, it changes the behavior of the individual. If you've ever seen how a drug addict develops, its amazing how similar the effects of the Ring are compared to a drug. The person becomes a pathetic version of its former self, and even if they managed to ween themselves off of the drug, they still show how much the drug managed to degrade them in so many ways.
I hadn't really thought of it until you posted this, Eowyn, but one of my best friends back in high school became a drug addict. 9th grade he started, and the effects were slow to take hold. But by half-way through the 10th grade, he had left school and was becoming a full-time drug addict. I saw him occasionally through my high school years after that, and each time he was progressively worse. It reminds me of Gollum. How, at first, he was a regular schmoe, then the Ring got ahold of him, and he started to become something the community despised. Like Gollum being banished, my friend was heading that way. He left to Boston for awhile, and there things only got worse. Luckily my friend managed to pull his life back together, but I could still see how the drugs had already done some damage. I'd known this guy for 5 years before he started taking drugs, and he could have gotten a scholarship to the school of his choice and probably could have made a good soccer team as well, if he hadn't gotten into drugs. Now, last I heard, he was becoming a hair-dresser. It was extremely dissappointing to see how he fell, especially since he was the better person (in sports and academics) compared to me when we were growing up.
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Eek... I'm sorry about your friend. 
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Don't be sorry. He gave me a lot of very good lessons in life without having to make the mistakes myself. The only thing I feel bad about now is that I still don't talk to him much. After watching him waste away and not doing more to stop it, I haven't forgiven him or myself. I haven't forgiven him for throwing everything he could have been away. I haven't forgiven myself for not doing so much more. But, if I'd known then what I know now, I would have. As they say, hind-sight is 20/20. I guess that's why elves are so fortunate, as well. Many have a limitted gift of foresight.
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NO!!!! HOW DARE YOU INSULT THE LACED LEMBAS????
I still don't get your point, by the way-are you saying that the Ring drove people insane, because that's kind of a given.
 Hand over the Laced Lembas, she-elf!
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I didn't really have a point. I was just observing the immediate effects the Ring had on each bearer, and asked why it took hold so fast, and what made it do that.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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MatrixMaster
(Sat Jun 14 00:49:19)
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| UPDATED Sat Jun 14 00:53:23 |
Hi Eowyn.
Another great On-Topic thread :)
I'm not as farmiliar with Tolkien mythos as some of the others, so I can't say I entirely know. But, from what I've gathered from LOTR ...
1) Sauron was a very powerful wizard (indeed a Maiar)
2) When he forged the One ring ... it was imbued with much of his essence
3) Thus, when someone was influenced by the ring ... it would be as though Sauron himself was there
Why did the Ring set itself to work so quickly?
Gandalf, also a Maiar, was afraid of even holding the ring ... knowing that he might have to contend with the will of Sauron.
If Gandalf's will was not enough to counter Sauron's .. surely no one else would be able to contend with the ring's powers of persuasion. Definitely not Smeagol or two hobbits.
Which raises the question, why wasn't the ring simply able to overpower Bilbo or Frodo and force them to return the ring to Mordor?
It brings me to your other question.
Do you think the Ring was working with its master, Sauron, or was it working independently to return to Sauron?
From what I've gathered Sauron is not master of the ring. Instead, he and the ring are really one. They need each other to be the full essence Sauron once was.
The ring is working independently, in the sense that it uses its own powers to influence others ... but deep down it really is just a part of Sauron trapped in there.
That the ring didn't overpower Frodo, seems clear to me now as part of the ring's plan to get itself back to Mordor. After all, so long as the ring left Frodo alone ... there was an entire fellowship prepared to take him into the very place Sauron wanted him to go. Had the ring simply overpowered Frodo to begin with, no one would have been willing to take the ring to Mordor. Sauron would then have been forced to march his armies outside Mordor to find it. But as we see in ROTK, Sauron's armies alone are not enough to garauntee him the ring. He needed the ring to come to Mordor willingly ... within his grasp sort to speak.
As to Bilbo, someone will have to explain that to me. Why didn't the ring simply overpower him and have Bilbo journey to Mordor where it could await Sauron? The only thing I can think of is that maybe it would have fallen into the hands of someone like Saruman or Galadriel en route. But to my knowledge I don't think this is right, since it was clearly implied that the ring would eventually overpower anyone.
In any case, thanks for the topic. I promise that as long as you keep posting, I'll keep responding, hopefully I'm not the only one 
You do not truly know someone until they see the Matrix 
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Thanks for replying, MM!
Gandalf was a Maiar?  Are the Istari Maiar? I haven't read very far into "The Sil," but I was under the impression that the Istari just appeared out of nowhere... and, (SPOILER), I think the main reason why Gandalf refused to even hold the Ring was because he was bearer of the third Elven Ring, Narya (given to him by Círdan). If Galadriel had accepted the Ring from Frodo, she'd have tried to do good, but eventually all she'd do would be evil. Same with Gandalf, since they were both keepers of an Elven Ring.
From what I've gathered Sauron is not master of the ring. Instead, he and the ring are really one. They need each other to be the full essence Sauron once was.
Oooh... I like the way you expressed that!
That the ring didn't overpower Frodo, seems clear to me now as part of the ring's plan to get itself back to Mordor. After all, so long as the ring left Frodo alone ... there was an entire fellowship prepared to take him into the very place Sauron wanted him to go. Had the ring simply overpowered Frodo to begin with, no one would have been willing to take the ring to Mordor. Sauron would then have been forced to march his armies outside Mordor to find it. But as we see in ROTK, Sauron's armies alone are not enough to garauntee him the ring. He needed the ring to come to Mordor willingly ... within his grasp sort to speak.
Hmm... that's a really interesting way of looking at it! I never thought of that before... very nice!
Now, about Bilbo... in "The Shadow of the Past" (FotR), Gandalf says that Bilbo's finding the Ring almost immediately after It left Gollum (because as long as It was with Gollum, Gollum would never leave his cave, and the Ring would never get back to Sauron) was an unexpected coincidence. He called the occurrence something like "the most amazing thing in the Ring's history." Maybe, because Bilbo's finding It was so unexpected, the Ring didn't know how to handle Its new owner, so It jut went along for the ride...? I know that sounds silly, but that's my theory. 
Anyway, thanks MM, for your support!  I don't know how many more of these I can churn out, though, without going insane with overactive brain cells! 
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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I think there is something else about Hobbits and the Ring that could be considered.
Hobbits seem to be quite resistant to magic. While not embued with magic, they seem to show a resistance to magical influences better than other races. There were a few examples to draw this conclusion from, but most centered around the Ring, which brings me to my next idea.
The Ring, having a mind of its own (whether connected to Sauron or not, I am unsure), could simply have seen the hobbits as too weak for anything other than carriers. Unlike Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, or anyone else of greater stature and power than the hobbits, the hobbits could not present a powerful enough opposition to Sauron to hurt him nor would they have the ambition to confront Sauron as Hobbits are generally easy-going. Gandalf, on the other hand, had a need for poewr, ambitions, and designs that the Ring could use to work on Gandalf. Gandalf could probably then be persuaded (by the Ring) to confront Sauron before he was prepared, thus bringing the Ring back to its master and removing an obstacle in the process.
I believe in both of these, though. The hobbits resistance to magical influences allowed them to endure the Ring far longer than the other races. And, the Ring also saw them as too weak and easy-going for any designs of its own. This combination allowed the Ring-bearers to endure the Ring's effects far better. Also, Frodo and Bilbo rarely used the Ring. Gandalf made a comment about the amount of usage increases the effects of the Ring on the person. Yet, even in the end, all the bearers had extreme difficulty releasing the Ring from their posession.
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Good points, Phar! Remember Pippin, and how quickly he recovered from his glimpse into the Palantír?
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Yep, and that was one of the examples I was thinking of when I said hobbits seem to have a resistance to magical influences. The other big ones were the morgul wounding of Frodo and Sam's defeating the power of the Ring trying to take over him. I think Sam defeating the Ring in a contest of wills was extraordinary, considering how plain and ordinary Sam seems to be throughout the story. The Ring offers Sam the perfect world (in Sam's view), but Sam simply says "Nah, too elaborate. I think I'll stay just a plain old hobbit in my small corner of the world." And the Ring lost any chance of really getting a hold on Sam after that, it would seem.
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Hobbits may very well be resistant to magic in general, as it is so far from their own crafts and experience. But I think their resistance to the power of the Ring is not based on resistance to magic in general, but to what the Ring actually does to the possessor.
To begin with, what is the power of the Ring itself? This is intentionally left vague, a sharp contrast from many other fairy-tales where a magical talisman makes a person immune to weapons or gives them the ability to fly or something tangible like that. This Ring was crafted to govern all of the others, and would thus ensnare the leaders of Men, Elves and Dwarves. By controlling the leaders of each race, Sauron would be able to govern their actions from afar, dictate the course of each group. The Elves sensed this as soon as Sauron put on the One Ring and immediatly took theirs off and hid them all away. Sauron had to go about recovering them by force, though he never attained the Three.
Aside from the command of the other ringbearers, the power of the One Ring seems to be that of command in general. Sauron's goal since the days of Morgoth was always domination of others, control of the earth. So it follows that a Ring that he put much of his own spirit into would be one that gave its wearer the ability to dominate the will of others. When the Ring is eventually destroyed, it is clear how much Sauron was drawing on its power (for even without possession of it, the Ring existed, and thus the power within in was available to Sauron in a limited way). His orcs were suddenly without will, and though his human allies are more independent, their morale also suffered when Sauron's power dissipated. So the one who has the Ring will have a greatly increased ability to cow his enemies and to attract followers that are dedicated and willing to die for that cause.
Yet the power the Ring grants is also based on the stature of the wearer; the strength of will as well as desires and intents. Gandalf knows that he would be a dangerous guardian of the ring because, "through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine." His innate power is already very strong, and he also has much desire to go about righting the wrongs of the world and countering Sauron. In a letter, Tolkien speculates that Gandalf (the White) may have been the only person in Middle-earth who could have wielded the Ring and successfully challenged Sauron, though it would have been very close. But he writes further that the result would have been terrible, that Gandalf as a Dark Lord would be much worse than Sauron because he would act from righteousness, and evil would actually appear as good. I guess it is better to have a great evil that you can recognize and denounce easily.
Now consider the hobbits. Their own innate strengh is fairly weak; I am not overlooking examples of their fortitude and courage, but referring to their normal states. Some hobbits do possess a great strength, but it requires experience and the right amount of pressure to awaken it. As Bilbo was when he found the Ring, and Frodo when he accpeted it, there was little strength of will there.
But perhaps more important is the role of intent and desire. The Shire is an example of the most free and communal system seen in Middle-earth. There are no monarchs; the highest position of power in the land is an elected Mayor, and we're told that he does little more than preside over ceremonies. Hobbits are true hedonists that want only to be able to enjoy their own quiet lives and have no desire to have a say in the doings of others. Until there's a shortage of tobacco or food, the hobbits have nothing to argue about amongst each other. So when the Ring falls into the hand of a hobbit, well, there isn't much there to tempt them with. Visions of conquest and glory have no hold over the peaceful hobbit mind. The closest we see to a hobbit entertaining such notions is when Sam has the Ring in Mordor, and briefly sees himself charging the Dark Tower, sword in hand, casting it down and building gardens from the waste. But with only a little effort, he shakes the visions off, his humility laughs at such an idea.
Compare this to the lure of the Ring to Men, particularly one such as Boromir. Here is a man who is already a powerful warrior and a leader in a country of strong men. When the Ring offers visions to him he sees men from all over Middle-earth flocking to his banner. At the head of these forces he would break the Black Gate, rout the armies of Mordor and completely overthrow Sauron, for the betterment of mankind. Part of this is inspired by a noble desire to help his people, to save Middle-earth from evil, but the vision is also exploiting his ego, granting him glory and recognition beyond all others at that time. Perhaps the other quality that makes hobbits resistant to the Ring is also a lack of pride. Not only do they have no desire to rule others, they also do not seek to be recognized, to be placed above their fellows and hailed as great. When one of them (Bilbo) did go off and do remarkable things, they only mumbled about how odd he was. And even when Bilbo did share his stories, it was to thrill and entertain, and not to impress them with his great feats of skill and bravery.
I would snare not even an orc with a falsehood. 
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Wow, great post, m'Lord! I think that if I found myself nodding and agreeing with you as I read - which I did - that's a clear indication that I can't think of anything to contest, or to add.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Great post, Lord Natrone. I found myself becoming long-winded lately, so I've been trying to cut back on saying too much. Now I find I don't say everything I want to because I over condense. I guess I'll find that middle-ground sometime. But you said and explained a lot that I meant too and went into other areas that I had only briefly thought about.
I keep thinking about Hobbits and their "durability" now. Both in a physical sense and magical, they seem to be exceedingly more durable than most races. Gandalf is always commenting on how strong hobbits are in a pinch and how tough they can be. Proportionally, hobbits seem to be one of the most durable people in ME. In the Scouring of the Shire, I sometimes start thinking about WWII, and how it seems so similar. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, they pissed off the wrong people. Just like when Germany invaded Russia, same thing. When the ruffians took over the shire, they really pissed off a people that would have been better to have left alone.
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Hi Eowyn. Great post.
I think the Ring acted on its own and did so according to the situation it found itself in. In each case, it seems, the Ring is trying to remain hidden as much as possible. The murder of Déagol and the lies of Bilbo would ensure that only one person -- the one who has the ring -- knows about it (except, of course, when Bilbo takes it from Gollum). The Ring tries to maintain itself secret in order to keep the Wise from finding out about it (and its whereabouts). This seems to me a deliberate, purposeful plan. The Ring examined each situation and deduced the best course of action independently.
Those who avoid decapitation leave more offspring.
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Thanks for replying, Jon. I think that bit about the Ring trying to keep itself secret from the Wise is really interesting!
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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