 by -
Sir_Big_V
(Sat Jul 12 09:10:37)
|
|
 UPDATED Sat Jul 12 09:11:26 |
When telling Frodo about the Ring's history, Gandalf says "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip.
Now...
although it is mentioned that there were other Rings of Power, we only hear about the 1, the Three, the Seven and the Nine.
This quote is from early in the story, back when Tolkien was trying to come up with a story...which does not really get ironed out in plot or goal until the Council of Elrond, which is several chapters later.
So, we can establish that what Gandalf said is patently untrue, without clarification.
The Nine, I think can be argued, that their original posessors never gave them up in life, although Sauron eventually took them, when he took ownership of the souls of their victims.
The Seven, until destroyed or taken back by Sauron who passed down within the families...we know Thror had one and Thrain received it from him, before it was taken from him with torment at Dol Gulder.
So...although, to be accurate, Bilbo was the first person to ever intentionally walk away from The Great Ring, and the Nine were never given up freely,
we know that the Seven were passed father to son, and we know that the Elven Rings, also Rings of Power, were freely passed from one to the other...Gil-galad gave his to Elrond, and Cirdan gave his to Gandalf.
We know what Gandalf may have intended to say...
but why did Tolkien leave these sentences in the books?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
Perhaps he was meaning the ring of power only, but overlooked editing the article at the beginning of that sentence which would have changed it from any ring of power to one ring of power.
I would like to step out of my heart and go walking beneath the enormous sky.
|
|
|
| by -
mpanc1
(Sat Jul 12 09:26:04)
|
|
Well, we know that the 3, the elven rings, were made without the help of Sauron and were not perverted by him. So, I think that that sentence only applies to the rings made under Sauron's guidance. As for the 7, I believe that it has something to do with the typical tough, resistant, dwarven nature. They might have been able to resist the lure of the rings. In the hands of any other race, the rings may have acted like the One did with Gollum and Isildur. This is my best explanation.
What's your first name Mr. Burns--- I don't know.
|
|
|
That is my confusion...
He may have been referring to the Rings made involving Sauron, but he said, "A Ring of Power", and made other references to how rings of power should not be used lightly.
We understand why the Seven did not affect the Dwarves like the Nine did Men, Aule was responsible for that...
But, it does not resolve the possible contradiction.
Good answer, though.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
Possible...but at that point, I do remember if he knew yet that it was THE Ring.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
Tolkien may have originally planned for all the rings of power to be as tricksy as the one ring, but changed his mind and not changed the passage. I've done that before doing term papers and no matter how many times I've gone over it, I've still missed a word because it seems insignificant, but can change the whole meaning of the passage if that one small word is changed.
And I think mpanc may be right that it's really only the rings made under Sauron's guidance that it would apply to, and not the other rings of power made without his involvement.
I would like to step out of my heart and go walking beneath the enormous sky.
|
|
|
I can understand that...and except for the Three (which are also Rings of Power) and the Seven, still contradict that statement...
no big crisis...just something I noticed reading another thread.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
| by -
Aule
(Sat Jul 12 10:22:48)
|
|
Perhaps it was just a case of Gandalf exaggerating in order to get the point across. It's kind of like your parents telling you to never eat berries off of bushes. Some berries are poisonous and others are not, so tell the kid to stay away from all of them.
|
|
|
Was he also going to send Frodo to bed without dinner?
I suppose that is as likely as any other option...
Good to see you again, Aule.
SBV
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Sat Jul 12 20:06:54)
|
|
That's exactly what came across my mine, Aule. There are other places in the books that Gandalf does that. I can't think of any right now, but I know there are .
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC 
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
Oh, Gandalf was well-documented by character testimony to be close with information. He was always hesitant to give out details until they were useful.
Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Sat Jul 12 21:04:46)
|
|
What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you agree with my statement? Or was I wrong? It's entirely possible I was, it's 12:03 AM  .
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
Looking back at your original statement, I think mine is kind of tangential. I agree with you, but I'm not sure what I put down actually backs that up rather than illuminating another point.
BTW I'm seeing some PoTC sig lines now...that's cool, I take that as validation of it being a fun movie to go see, moreso than anyone's review, lol.
Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Sat Jul 12 21:25:33)
|
|
OK. Thankz for the explanation, I couldn't quite figure out where yours fit in with mine.
Oh goodness, yes. If you see no other movie this year (which won't happen, we all are dying to see ROTK), see this one (as those cute moose say in the previews). It's amazing...and the sig lines are because of the hysterical lines. I'm just lucky I got mine in quick! .
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
I couldn't quite figure out where yours fit in with mine.
'nuff said. I don't need to go any further with that line of thought.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| by -
Lianachan
(Sat Jul 12 17:23:42)
|
|
| UPDATED Sat Jul 12 17:25:48 |
I'm not sure if anybody else has raised this, as I've not read most of the other replies - but the Dwarves were largely immune to the effects of the Seven of the Sixteen that they were given:
Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.)
From Lorf Of The Rings: Appendix 3
Also, the Three Elven Rings were (of course) never touched or influenced by Sauron.
I think, bearing those two things in mind, Tolkien meant a Ring Of Power's keeper never abandoned it if he was vulnerable to its (Sauron created) power, but he doesn't explicitly state that. I think it can be inferred from the text, though, that's how I've always read it.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
Lianachan,
to the point as ever.
I inferred some of that in my original post, I believe...as have others...the 3 and 7 were different, due to Sauron never touching the 3 and the nature of the Dwarves, as created by Aule.
I am looking specifically at Gandalf commenting on "Rings of Power".
I have no answers on this, just questions...
I am enjoying the responses...and seeing how other people look at this.
Thank you, as always, for your thoughtful insight.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
Ah, but remember there's no such thing as "the seven" or "the nine" - apart from the three Elven Rings and the One Ring, the other 16 of the 20 Rings Of Power were absolutely identical.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
If memory serves (and echoing others on this thread), the 20 rings we're talking about were the Great Rings...that other, lesser Rings were made before that. The One, Three, Seven and Nine were the acme of the whole...Ring-making....art....thing.
So from context, perhaps Gandalf is referring to lesser Rings?
Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.
|
|
|
We do not know...because we never encounter lesser Rings.
We also cannot say, because we only have a limited pool...but in that discussion...
we have the Rings of the Elves and Dwarves, part of that acme period...which don't fit that mold.
Just thoughts...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
It's true that in the earliest conception of the Rings of Power, in the first drafts of LOTR, the concept was of many rings (many more than 20) being handed out, and not of different flavors. Each one turned its bearer into a wraith.
Eventually, of course, the concept of the One came about...
Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.
|
|
|
Interesting...I think the point of the Seven was the same...wraiths in thrall
didn't work, though...
thank you elkie
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
|
|
|
Hey Big V,
The first two sentences fit fine in my understanding. I don't think that any body ever abandoned the Rings. I think of that as forsaking, not just passing it on. As the dwarves were dying the natural thing even for the somewhat possessive dwarves to do was to pass things on in the family line. I think it was natural to assume the Ring would be included as a matter of tradition. I suppose they could have tried to take it with them but I think they were smarter than that. Gil-galad and Cirdan knew that the end would be better served if the rings went to someone else. So again I don't see the rings as being abandoned.
However, I don't have an explanation for the wording after the abandoning part. I guess my best thought is that Gandalf was only considering the strength of mere mortals (or hobbits as the case may be) since he was telling the story to one.
I also don't think that Bilbo gave the Ring up entirely of his own free will. I certainly believe he was strong that most of the past ringbearers but if Gandalf was not so persuasive then I think Bilbo would have kept the Ring. And he still had the desire to get it back although he was able to overcome that. But I don't think he decided to give it up on his own. That's why Gollum was necessary. Frodo couldn't give it up on his own either.
Oooo wait, maybe the answer is in the wording of "handing it on to someone else's care" and that happening in the "early stage" of the possession. Technically that is what Gil-galad and Cirdan did and for eternal beings you could consider it was in the early stages. Okay reaching here ! Plus, he uses the words "plays with the idea" not that they actually give it away. Okay, back to the original thought.
Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours. -Richard Bach
|
|
|
This message has been deleted by the poster
|
|
|
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
|
|
|
| by -
sinaes
(Tue Aug 5 01:49:55)
|
|
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
|
|
|
Not idly do the leaves of Lorien fall
|
| |
| | |
company.
Advertise on IMDb.
License our content.
