Following their encounter with the elves that are leaving for the Grey Havens, Frodo asks Sam if he now wants to leave the Shire, as his wish to see elves has already come true.
Sam’s answer is unexpected, and prophetic:
"...I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can’t turn back. It isn’t to see elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want – I don’t rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.”
Sam (and Frodo at this stage in the story) has no idea where they are to eventually head – as far as they know, they are only going as far as Bree, to meet Gandalf. So where do Sam’s words come from? Do you think they are intuition, a purely personal feeling of Sam’s that the road ahead is to be long and dark? Or are they from some external source; Gandalf perhaps, or Fate, or Providence?
Later in the story, in Shelob’s lair, Sam remembers these words, as Tolkien puts it:
“... he remembered his own voice speaking words that at the time he did not understand himself.”
And this leads to an inner dialogue (similar, in a way, to the Smeagol/Gollum one) in which he debates the pros and cons of leaving Frodo and continuing the quest alone. But the way the dialogue is presented is as though Sam is conversing with someone else – either this must be his own conscience (which knows what his path must be) or it is that voice of Fate, or Providence (or Gandalf?) again, prompting Sam to gather his courage and go on.
What do you think of Sam’s “vision”? Is it an expression of his own innate sense and courage (which are both prominent facets of his character); or do you think Tolkien is allowing “Fate” to intervene, by whatever source?
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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Good post Belladonna! I think that Sam is having a conversation with himself - or his conscience as you put it. It seems to me that he is very intuitive probably even more so than Frodo (who may be affected because of the ring hanging around his neck). He is spot on with his impressions of Gollum and so brave when it comes to dealing with the orcs in the last book. I believe he's just giving himself a little pep talk after having gone through so much already and then remembering that he had thought that this would be treacherous journey from the start, kind of confirming himself. Does that make sense?
Rosie's Diary: Feeling nauseous & dizzy. Calling Dr. Tinuviel, Goddess, MD. She's on her way.
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Perfect sense Rosie!
Sam does seem to have a certain intuitive sense (and he's probably the one you would least expect it from), and huge reserves of courage and loyalty.
The reason I started wondering about this was, when Frodo puts on the Ring at Amon Hen, he hears a voice in his head telling him to take it off - which turns out to be Gandalf's voice. (Gandalf alludes to this later in the story).
I wondered whether something similar was happening here... is Fate intervening to ensure that Sam takes the right path, when he is desperate to stay by Frodo's side?
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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I would think that since he's tempted to leave Frodo's side that the force comes from elsewhere - not Gandalf. I'm not sure where but that would be an evil force telling him to leave Frodo. I'm so glad that he's so inately good that things work out for the best (even though he leaves it takes him long enough to do it that he sees Frodo being taken and eventually is able to rescue him). Call it fate or whatever.
Rosie's Diary: Feeling nauseous & dizzy. Calling Dr. Tinuviel, Goddess, MD. She's on her way.
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I don't agree that it's an evil force.
***Spoilers here***
Leaving Frodo at that point (Sam takes the Light of Galadriel and the Ring, determined to continue the quest, as he believes Frodo is dead) is, I think, the right thing to do. If he had stayed with Frodo, they would probably both have been captured by the orcs.
It's a tough call! But, as you say, it works out for the best.
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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That's true and I see the point. Perhaps you're right thinking that Gandalf is in some way communicating to Sam. It's an interesting premise. And I hadn't thought of them both being captured (along with the Ring) if he hadn't gone when he had. Hmmmm - you've given me lots to think about, Belladonna.
Rosie's Diary: Feeling nauseous & dizzy. Calling Dr. Tinuviel, Goddess, MD. She's on her way.
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 That's what I'm here for! 
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Great topic, Bella, it really seems like you put a lot of thought and care into it, thank you for that!
*possible spoilers, I have no idea what I'm going to say, but I can't be trusted!*
Personally, I always saw Sam's "vision" as a bit of fate, maybe peppered with some providence. Actually, to me it seems part of a recurring theme of fate that permeates the entire tale: Gandalf/Aragorn's words about pitying Gollum, or Elrond's feeling that Merry and Pippen should join the Fellowship, or even the hobbits' encounter with Bombadil which leads to the barrows which leads to the Westernesse blades which leads to the downfall of the witchking (I guess my spoiler warning was warranted!), when you consider the tale as a whole it's hard not to see the hand of fate, or maybe Eru, actively taking part in the journey. The moment Sam has his vision seems to simply be the time he's touched by that hand.
And it's a good thing, too! As you've pointed out, he draws on that vision later in his time of crisis. I think if Fate/Eru had an intention in touching Sam, it was to give him a bit of hope and strength when he needs it most. After all, Sam may have the hardest choices to make throughout the entire tale, not only because of his situation, but also because of his background and personality. For a gardener to decide the fate of the world is a big thing. But Sam's vision is a gift, it sets a tone for him, and gives him an understanding of the big turning world and the big place he has in it.
So, when Sam has his inner dialogue later on, I think the "someone else" he's conversing with is definitely himself. Or better yet, the two halves would be Home Sam and Worldly Sam. Home Sam, the gardener. Worldly Sam, the hobbit who knows he has to make a difference any way he can. I think this little vision of the future is the fuel that drive Worldly Sam on his way.
I'm naked under my clothes...again 
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Thank you Dirtrum, for the compliment, and for the insights in your reply!
Sam may have the hardest choices to make throughout the entire tale, not only because of his situation, but also because of his background and personality. For a gardener to decide the fate of the world is a big thing. But Sam's vision is a gift, it sets a tone for him, and gives him an understanding of the big turning world and the big place he has in it.
That's a brilliant way of putting it. Fate (or Eru) gives Sam a little push, but in the end he has to make up his own mind about the right thing to do. This does seem to be something of a recurring theme in the book.
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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Great post, Belladonna. Sam has always been a special kind of character in the story. He gives strength and courage to others throughout the journey and stays with Frodo to the very end, an instrument of Frodo's successful mission. I always think that when Sam says something profound, we should listen, because he is the servant and voice of the gods. Gandalf chose him for the journey- all others chose themselves, but Gandalf saw something in Sam that the journey needed. At Rivendell, Sam was the first to step forward and claim his place with Frodo. The others came after. It's always been Sam first, the rest of the Fellowship following.
For this reason, I think that Sam's moments of inspiration are really Tolkien's devices for showing the intention of the Valar. It's good foreshadowing, a necessary literary technique, and Sam, in his steadfastness, is the best character in the story to be the conveyor of the love and support the Valar give to the Ringbearer.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Wow! Thanks athene, your clarity of thought and expression always leave me awestruck!
I am in the middle of reading Tolkien's letters, and I have noticed that Tolkien calls Sam his "chief hero". And I think it's Sam's character that is ultimately the most human (or what us humans should be aspiring to).
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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Good post! (however did I miss it on the boards?) I have often wondered why Sam was suddenly inspired to cry out Elvish words, as he did from Shelob's Lair and on, but I have never come up with my own answer. When I do, I'll reply properly. But in the meantime, good job! 
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Thank you Eowyn, looking forward to your thoughts
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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Uinen
(Tue Jun 10 14:13:12)
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Wow, Bella. Very nice, and very deep!!!
However, I really don't have a clue as how to answer you. But I do have another question. We got an LOTR movie catalog today, with all sorts of LOTR merchandise in it. On the remake of Frodo's sword Sting, it had some words in Elvish. The catalog said they translated to something like "This is the spider's bane". Does anyone know if this is true?
 Every day I beat my record for number of consecutive days I've stayed alive.
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It is put as Maegnas is my name, I am the spiders bane?
That's pretty accurrate as far as I can tell.
The inscription in Sindarin is Maegnas aen estar nin~dagnir in yngyl im
 I did that off an on-line catalogue pic, and then found a page that had all that on it! *scoff*
More literally: Maegnas(Sting) I am named~Bane of spiders am I
I fear not the shadows of Men
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I always pictured Sam as the stereotypical (in this aspect only) slow thinker. I do not mean that negatively. He makes no quick decisions, unless it is crisis time, and not even then. He follows. He thinks everything through thoroughly. When he is done, he has made the decision he needs to make. He even has a conversation with himself trying to decide where Frodo is, and what he is thinking. It takes him a moment, but he thinks, instead of reacting like all of the others. Hence, he is the only one who figures out what is on Frodo's mind. He gets to the river and catches up with Frodo.
Further, I think the conversation with himself at Shelob's lair is him remembering his own words, and thinking through the process, to again, come to the correct decision.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Good points SBV
The more I think about Sam's character, the more complexities come to light. He seems, on the surface, to be utterly straightforward and simple, but there are hidden depths!
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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You are right. There is an incredible unseen depth about Sam. It is visible if you look for it, but it is hidden right under the nose, as it were.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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jon-334
(Wed Jun 11 00:47:12)
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 UPDATED Fri Jun 13 09:06:07 |
Do you think they are intuition, a purely personal feeling of Sam’s that the road ahead is to be long and dark?
I think so. At this point in the story Sam knows about the Ring and its danger but it is likely that he doesn't completely understand the events that are taking place:
It isn’t to see elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want – I don’t rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire.
His initial expectations have proved erroneous and have led to confusion -- the road ahead is full of 'darkness.' The encounter with the Ringwraith and the words of the Elves have, perhaps for the first time, made him aware of the gravity of the situation. He knows something important is ahead but has no idea what that thing is.
I don’t rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire.
This is the prophetic part. It would not be surprising if it was indeed Providence intervening. It's not uncommon for characters in Tolkien's writing to have "a foresight come over them." I favour this idea. But it could also be a lucky guess*! Sam feels that dark times are ahead and that the chances of him avoiding involvement are slim. His loyalty would require he get involved.
I can't comment on the Sam's later dialogue because I don't remember its details.
*Somewhat comparable to Fate?
Those who avoid decapitation leave more offspring.
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Thank you jon, great answer!
Tolkien often seems to give us a choice when he writes about circumstance - he will say this or that happened "by good fortune, or fate"; or that "luck, or perhaps fate guided his hand". It's like he's leaving the reader a chance to make up their own mind as to which it could be.
...diving for dear life, when we should be diving for pearls...
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jon-334
(Wed Jun 11 01:35:16)
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| UPDATED Wed Jun 11 01:35:46 |
Very true. It would be interesting to discuss the matter of foresight in general. I'm not aware of any explanation of that phenomenon ever having been provided by Tolkien. Is Eru involved? The Valar? Is it mere chance? But that's a topic for another thread, I guess.
Those who avoid decapitation leave more offspring.
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Good idea! Maybe you could start one up?
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jon-334
(Wed Jun 11 02:03:57)
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| UPDATED Wed Jun 11 02:39:05 |
Actually, I think it's better if we save that one for a later date because the topic is similar to the one being discussed on this thread. Once this baby has had a good run 'round the board we can bring up the other one (the new thread would probably have a very short lifespan if it was posted now).
Those who avoid decapitation leave more offspring.
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