Following on from Ptero-valley's thread asking whether the Eagles should speak, I thought I'd ask if anybody has any thoughts on whether the One Ring should speak.
"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
"'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'
"The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire.
"Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on breast, his breath coming in great gasps, and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground."
The Return Of The King
Many Tolkienologists interpret the above passage to mean that the voice came literally out of the described wheel of fire at Frodo's breast, where the Ring was. Others say it was a vision that Sam saw.
I was wondering what your, and Peter Jackson's, take on it is.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
 by -
sinaes
(Tue Jul 22 02:25:03)
|
|
PJ has established that the Ring does speak, but only in the language of Mordor. It would be disconcerting to hear the Ring speak English in ROTK, so I doubt it will happen.
What may happen is that the Ring utters something in Mordor, and Frodo/Sam somehow understand what the Ring was telling them anyway.
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
|
|
|
There's no point in having the Ring speak in the Black Speech, if he has it speak at the time it possibly speaks in the book. It is talking to Frodo, who doesn't speak that language, and I'm not sure how Frodo could successfully be shown to understand.
If that's when PJ has it speak, it has to speak "english", whether PJ likes it or not. Apart from anything else, that would be in keeping with the book - changing the language on his own whim would not be appreciated.
I think his best course of action, since it is not certain that the Ring does speak in the book, is to not have it speak in the film. Either that or have it speak "english".
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
I can see that this is open to interpretation, but I figured it was Frodo speakin, not the Ring.
at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice
There is a wheel of fire, but saying the voice coming from it belongs to the Ring seems too literal, a failure to realize that Sam is seeing this ring of fire in front of Frodo. The fire ring is dominating Sam's view, but it is Frodo speaking that is heard. What about the words that are heard:
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom. I can see how one could construe this as the Ring's will, but doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense for Frodo to be saying it? Don't bother me anymore, if you do you'll fall into Mt. Doom.
before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white. Frodo, the one who has up to now been merciful to Gollum is now saying no more Mr. Nice Guy - he's not falling for Gollum's crying anymore.
It's late and I know I'm not being coherent, but when I look at the passage it seems to be all there.
|
|
|
It really is wide open to debate, this topic, as nowhere does Tolkien give a clear answer.
The two camps are:
The Ring spoke, and
Frodo was speaking to Gollum, and the power of the Ring made him appear powerful.
The second argument is strenghtened by statments like "For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog." (LotR). That passage makes it clear that Sam was having a vision, and it could well have been a similar thing (albeit more amplified) at the top of Mt Doom.
Myself - I'm not really sure. I'd like to think that the Ring spoke, for unquantifiable personal reasons. I'd just like to have that added layer of complexity and sentinence to it, I suppose. Similarly, I would like the Ring to speak in the film. The Ring is a great character  .
I can see, and accept, both arguments on whether the Ring speaks.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Tue Jul 22 05:35:54)
|
|
 SPOILER!!!! BEWARE!!!!
Well it's almost a prophecy. No matter if it's Frodo or The Ring, Gollum does fall into Mount Doom. I think it makes more sense if The Ring is talking. If Gollum touches it again, he will fall into Mt. Doom. And he does. While he also touches Frodo (and leaves him with 9 fingers), I think for The Ring to speak is more probable...
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC 
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
I really can't make up my mind. Both arguments seem perfectly sensible to me!
For all that I would prefer it to be the Ring talking, I tend to think it's more likely to have been Frodo, empowered by the Ring.
Should be an interesting scene in the film, anyway, whichever interpretation Peter Jackson goes for.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
This is just repeating what I said above, but I think the biggest factor to put the words in Frodo's mouth is the actual words heard.
Begone and trouble me no more? Yeah, I guess Gollum did haul the Ring around for a few centuries, obsessing about it, but did that bother the Ring? Did the Ring feel "unclean" after being molested by Gollum for so many years?
Now picture Frodo saying those same words...makes a lot more sense. It also fits with his earler line about the Ring being treachorous, and "will hold you to your word."
I agree it's ambiguous but this 'theory' strikes me as the best fit.
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Tue Jul 22 09:43:05)
|
|
You make a good point too. I dunno. We'll just have to see  .
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
As in what PJ does with it? I'm curious to see that myself, but his interpretation for the films will not add strength to either side of the discussion. For starters he's shown a willingness to modify things as needed when it will make a better film (I say that with no condemnation) and secondly, so far as I can tell, he's acutally misinterpreted the question of "Does Sauron have a body?".
Leaving Sauron as as spirit in FOTR was not just a liberty he took with the text - from his discussions of Sauron I've gotten the impression that he actually believes that Tolkien left Sauron disincarnate at the end of the Third Age; many people who read the book come away thinking this.
I do think that he's a well versed Tolkien scholar, could certainly go toe to toe with many of us on these boards, but he's out in left field on this issue. I'm only mentioning this to point out that in spite of his expertise, the man is not infallible when it comes to knowing Tolkien's works.
|
|
|
Either way it works; if it's Gollum or Frodo. Because... Frodo could have stopped playing 'Mr. Nice Guy' and all- there was this phrase sort of going like 'A figure in white untouchable now by pity' and there's this other quote- 'it seemed to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum shrunk' or something or rather; it somehow seems more probable to me that it was Frodo speaking, but it would be cool to see the ring speak in the movie.
|
|
|
| by -
Uinen
(Tue Jul 22 05:39:50)
|
|
You need to get a girl, mate...
-POTC
Pick me! Pick me!
|
|
|
I don't think that the One Ring actually said those words. I think Frodo himself said them, with no influence from the Ring at all. One can argue that, as Frodo was suddenly inspired to cry, "Elbereth Gilthoniel!" at Weathertop and "By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" by some outer force, so was the Ring speaking through him. But I do not think that Tolkien meant for the Ring to actually have vocal abilities, and I doubt that the Ring pressured Frodo to say such words. Frodo said them of his own volition; it only appears that the Ring spoke through him because of the different vision through which Sam saw the scene. We know that Frodo is not really "a figure robed in white," so it is apparent to me that the Ring seeming to speak or speak through Frodo is also an illusion.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
|
|
|
I've wondered about that scene myself, and I think that rather than speak, the Ring should put on whiteface and pantomime, then do a little soft-shoe.
Either that or semaphore.
 Oog make mission statement.
|
|
|
No, Morse Code would be more effective than semaphore. It could just bounce itself up and down for the dots and dashes.
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
|
|
|
I'm having a Mr. Bill flashback!
"I hope that the forgotten people will not have forgotten how to fight."
|
|
|
I really have no idea. But either way, this scene should DEFINITELY be in the film.
It's a great moment, and I'd love to see P.J.'s version!
|
|
|
I read the passage to mean the ring Literally. I could, of course, got completely the wrong idea. I am only on my second run through the book. I am still in Bree and have already picked up on several things I missed the first time.
SMALL SPOILER...(that you probably worked out for yourself anyhow)...
I just read the cast list http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0167260 and can't see a "voice of the ring", so I guess that leaves us with either Frodo's or Sauron's voice? At least I can take it that the ring will definately not be speaking as a seperate entity.
If Mr. McMurphy doesn't want to take his medication orally...
|
|
|
You found my arguements unconvincing?
I'm not saying it cannot be otherwise, but I expected actual discussion on the matter.
|
|
|
No problem, I will elaborate...
I read "Begone and trouble me no more" as if the ring itself was telling us it no longer had a purpose for Gollum - I think that it did care. The ring has now corrupted Frodo to the point that Gollum is no longer necessary. i.e. Gollum was a tool to achieve the ring's purpose and it can discard the tool as the pathetic little creature it had to endure to return to it's true master.
You found my arguements unconvincing?
Not at all, I found your arguments extremely convincing. My interpretation was my gut feeling at the time when I read the book. It really hadn't even occured to me to look any deeper (try to remember that I am new to the books since the film), and I wasnt aware that this was even an issue between Tolkeinists.
When I am standing at the cracks of doom again, I will no doubt read in a different light - but I can't guarantee that I won't see it the same way again.
Hope that makes my position clearer.
If Mr. McMurphy doesn't want to take his medication orally...
|
|
|
Thanks for the reply. I wasn't trying to beat an idea out of you, but on message boards its easy to miss something that's been said when the thread grows and I didn't know if you'd considered my previous comments.
My own innate response was that it was Frodo talking. It wasn't until I saw this come up on another web site that I even knew it was so open to interpretation. Kind of like wings on the Balrog. I always pictured him with wings, and years later I read entire discourses saying he does and other's saying the opposite.
So as a recent first-time reader of the books, did you think it was wings or no wings.
By the way, I'm not looking to hijack this thread nor to start perhaps the most pointless Tolkien based debate that I can concieve of. I'm just asking about his first impression, no analysis of the text involved.
|
|
|
So as a recent first-time reader of the books, did you think it was wings or no wings.
I cant rightly remeber it being mentioned specifically (or if it was I missed it) so the short answer is no. No wings. The book version seemed less physically imposing to me, and more ancient and mystical. I seem to remember, and correct me if I am wrong, that the text said it was shaped like a human?
I felt there was more emphasis on the shadow description, it came across as quasi-real.
Again, now I know what to look for, I will watch out specifically when I get to Moria second time round. Just to see if my images change. The good thing about seeing the film before the book is that I can never be dissapointed with the casting.
I did think that the whole journey through Moria, including the Balrog, was one of the most visually impressive parts of FOTR. Another favourite is the moment that Frodo accepts the quest in Rivendell - Ian McKellans reaction is simply superb.
If Mr. McMurphy doesn't want to take his medication orally...
|
|
|
Another favourite is the moment that Frodo accepts the quest in Rivendell - Ian McKellans reaction is simply superb.
That is also a favorite moment of mine! I just watched FOTR this weekend and I always watch for that.
Just FYI, but as someone who had read the books many times before seeing the film, the casting was superb. I think that was one of the single most important factors in 'selling' this film to the Tolkien fans - matching characters to mental images. And then they were also able to do this with sets and landscapes...if LOTR were silent films I'd call PJ a genius and an artist just for how much he accomplished in the visual interpretation alone.
|
|
|
| by -
Beregond
(Tue Jul 22 11:04:31)
|
|
 UPDATED Tue Jul 22 11:08:30 |
Personnaly, I think it will be better if Frodo spoke, voicing the Ring's will. In that way one can see just how much Frodo got affected by bearing it all this time. That's how I always visualised it whenever I would read that scene anyway...
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! 
|
|
|
In his own voice? Or with an evil special effect pasted onto it?
If Mr. McMurphy doesn't want to take his medication orally...
|
|
|
In his own voice, I guess. There is a danger that the alternative might be over the top...
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
|
|
|
That would be good.
Another version I think would be good, although not true to the books, would be if Sauron spoke the words via the Ring.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
|
|
|
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
|
|
|
| by -
sinaes
(Tue Aug 5 01:52:47)
|
|
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
|
|
|
Oog make mission statement.
|
| |
| | |
company.
Advertise on IMDb.
License our content.
