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Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The (2002)
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The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - paul hawthorne (Sun Apr 13 17:38:14)
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My friend Aule and I got into a conversation about the concept of the Silmarils the other day. I mentioned that I was considering it for a new thread. We have spoken to each other before about the topic. So therefore I would like to credit my friend for participating in the initiation of this particular thread.

In consideration of Gemology it has been said that each of us has deep within the knowledge of all things. And when we ready ourselves to remember this, then the knowledge is there to be known. This wisdom is from the Dead Sea Scrolls. In ancient times forgotten, man's very existence was governed by magic. He believed that tools of the earth could attract the appropriate powers to create the desired effect. So from Tolkien's perspective, Feanor is a most ingenious creator. When he captured the light of the Two Trees to make the three Silmarils. The three great jewels he made in Valinor, in which he locked the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, before their destruction. These Silver and the Gold Trees that brought light to the Land of the Valar in ancient times.

From "The Silmarillion."

In that time were made those things that afterwards were renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Feanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the trees, the glory of the blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labor, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and subtle his skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils. As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of awaiting and comes no more among his kin: not until the sun passes and the moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong then adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Simarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is it life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended light of the trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury of the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvelous than before.

So I pose these questions to you
What are the effects of this intense light is it just visual, luminary, or spiritual! Or a combination in it’s over all radiance and effect. Is there significance to the intensity of this light that is comparable to the concept of pass over between life and death?

I am also curious about why you think Tolkien choose Diamonds to give us an idea of how they looked! Or as he said "Like the Crystal of Diamonds it appeared". It is also interesting to note that as projective powers diamonds touch the spirituality in us all. They are protective and afford us courage and peace. But that’s all I'm going to say for now!
Furthermore this also leads my thoughts in the direction of what I'll refer to as the "Area's of Invention". How knowledge can be a dangerous tool. It can be both creator and destroyer!

To conclude it could be said that Aule should have been a little more careful with his wisdom and his teaching! No pun intended!
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Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - paul hawthorne (Sun Apr 13 21:06:20)
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Ok wommy, thanks for the input!,....
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - CTS-1 (Sun Apr 13 21:25:53)
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UPDATED Sun Apr 13 21:31:21

Ooh, Paul, you're on Wormy's "too much for me to bother to comprehend" list, too. Honored to have you on board.

Re: the nature of the Silmaril's light. I have always assumed that the light must necessarily have a spiritual dimension. My basis is the different reactions various individuals had with the Silmarils, based on their virtue. Luthien became a vision of perfection on Middle- Earth. Dior and Beren could hold the Silmarils without any ill effects.

To the contrary, Maglor and Maedhros, having been corrupted by the effects of their oath, could not stand the touch of the Silmarils. The wolf was driven insane; even Morgoth was burdened and weighed down by their proximity. Since the tolerance of the contactee to the Silmarils was based on their relative virtue, the Silmaril's light was, in effect, a respector of persons and made distinctions based on moral/spiritual integrity.

I always assumed that the Silmarils were not so much relevant to passing over between this world and the next, as a vision of perfection on this plane. Perfect light which only accepts perfect virtue: one could even consider them to be a Platonic form made real (which would also explain why they were not replicable, even by their creator). Your views on this are, of course, welcome.

Look- Wormy's trying to think!
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - paul hawthorne (Sun Apr 13 21:38:34)
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Excellent thoughts CTS, it late here just want to drop you a line before I go. Food for thought as always! I will respond tomorrow.
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - Aule (Sun Apr 13 21:59:20)
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Good points, CTS. You touched on the power of the oath. Something which has lost it's meaning in the last hundred years or so, but something that Tolkien no doubt held dear.

Feanor was a being of great intellectual, creative, and spiritual force. His impact on the world was significant, to say the least. I think that Tolkien spoke not only about societies, but individuals that affect the course of events within those societies. Feanor, certainly was among the most significant, and his oath held power.
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - CTS-1 (Sun Apr 13 22:05:43)
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Indeed the oath did hold power- it became the most spiritually corrupting force ever to result from bad judgment, as opposed to actual ill intent.

One feature of the Silmarils' creation which I believe is often overlooked is the non-repeatability of their creation. In theory, all the raw materials to make more Silmarils would have been present, prior to the poisoning. Yet, Feanor indicated that they would be an unrepeatable task, even were the Trees to be restored. This takes their creation out of the realm of "science" (as well as the term can be applied to myth anyway) and firmly in the realm of metaphysics.



Look- he's trying to think!
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - Aule (Sun Apr 13 22:09:18)
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Absolutely! Good point. I'd like to see what others have to say about this.
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CTS
  by - paul hawthorne (Mon Apr 14 21:54:01)
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UPDATED Tue Apr 15 15:00:09

Hi CTS, sorry for the late response I've been watching the NHL play-offs.

Re: the nature of the Silmaril's light. I have always assumed that the light must necessarily have a spiritual dimension. My basis is the different reactions various individuals had with the Silmarils, based on their virtue. Luthien became a vision of perfection on Middle- Earth. Dior and Beren could hold the Silmarils without any ill effects.
To the contrary, Maglor and Maedhros, having been corrupted by the effects of their oath, could not stand the touch of the Silmarils. The wolf was driven insane; even Morgoth was burdened and weighed down by their proximity. Since the tolerance of the contactee to the Silmarils was based on their relative virtue, the Silmaril's light was, in effect, a respector of persons and made distinctions based on moral/spiritual integrity.

The precision and proof that you provide pushes my thoughts in this direction.
It could be interesting to explore some of the essential differences between the Silmarils and the one ring in consideration of the dynamism of Tolkien’s themes.
i.e. The spiritual encompassment of the soul, moral, and spiritual integrity etc. Which you have already mentioned!
On the subject of virtue, it is interesting how the Silmarils makes distinctions based on positive moral virtues. The Silmarils displaying elements of the highest spiritual integrity.


I always assumed that the Silmarils were not so much relevant to passing over between this world and the next, as a vision of perfection on this plane.


I have to apologize for my lack of clarifying my thoughts! The reason I mentioned this is because it is the most esoteric example of light in a pure spiritual form. Perhaps it attraction for souls is on a molecular level or sub atomic level of spiritual ascendance that is difficult to put in words.
Re: CTS
  by - CTS-1 (Mon Apr 14 22:44:50)
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I suspect that looking at these issues on a molecular or subatomic level is going off course. Tolkien was dealing with these issues within the framework of myth. Beyond a certain point, attempting to place these issues within a scientific framework is not only misplaced, it may be ignoring the greater truth. A special light which can distinguish between virtue and vice? Functions very well on the level of myth or theology, but very poorly on the level of empiricism (look it up, wormy).

From a 21st century framework, it is often the first impulse to create a valid empirical framework, even within a myth (which is, after all, what Tolkien was trying to create). I suspect that this is misplaced, although well intentioned (it is also my first approach when attempting to solve most puzzles). Merely accept certain facets of the myth as revealed truth on a theological level, and it seems to be more internally consistent.

Look- he's trying to think!
Re: CTS
  by - paul hawthorne (Tue Apr 15 15:16:57)
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A special light which can distinguish between virtue and vice? Functions very well on the level of myth or theology, but very poorly on the level of empiricism (look it up, wormy).


point well put!


Merely accept certain facets of the myth as revealed truth on a theological level, and it seems to be more internally consistent.


A remarkable statement on the essence of faith.

thanks CTS...
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Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien (SPOILERS)
  by - Sir_Big_V (Mon Apr 14 01:26:50)
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First, what do you mean by "luminary"?
Second, I would argue that the light of the Silmarils is both visual and spiritual.
The light of the Silmarils is the light of the Stone bound to Earendil's brow, which is the favorite star of the Elves of M-e. This is the light (as mentioned) of Telperion and Laurelin, the two Trees of Valinor. The Trees were grown by Yavanna to provide light to the world. Obviously, that light is visual...it can be seen in the normal visible spectrum. This is the light Feanor trapped in the Silmarils, and the source of the light Galadriel trapped in the Phial she gave to Frodo to be "a light in dark places, a light when all other lights fail." This light (from the Phial, from Galadriel, from the Silmaril on Earendil's brow, from the Two Trees) is visible and visual, and is the light that blinded Shelob.
This also is a great place to say also that it was a spiritual light, and like the Ring, had a "personality", in a sense. The Silmarils (if memory serves) could not bear the touch of evil, corruption or mortal flesh. This is exemplified by the burning of Morgoth's hands when he stole them, and his suffering from their proximity, even when mounted on his iron crown, they pained him, yet he loved and coveted them so much he could not let them go. I remember that the text speaks of how the Silmaril Beren stole from Morgoth "suffered his touch", implying that typically it would not, but perhaps to rid itself of proximity to Morgoth it allowed him to take it. I beleive also that there was a quote stating that the Silmarils could not be touched by mortal flesh, but I do not have time to look for it now. One of the Silmarils, again, if memory serves, burned one of Feanor's sons, so he threw it in the ocean to try to quell the pain. I believe this was because of the taint of the Oath they took, which I described as "corruption" above, for lack of a better term.
So, the Silmaril can distinguish (whether actively or passively something of the character of its holder.
Also, I would point out that in Shelob's Lair, the Phial glowed and scared off Shelob when Frodo held it, but glowed brighter and stronger when Sam held it. I think that was because the light of the Phial shone not just with the Light of the Trees trapped in it, but also with the light of the soul of the bearer, and Frodo's soul was clouded by the influence the Ring was "exerting" over him, while Sam was still pure.
I agree with the "courage and peace" reference you make to Diamonds referencing the belief in their spiritual benefit to us. Note also your use of the phrase "projective powers" re: my above comments regarding Frodo and Sam.
Diamonds are also one of the hardest substances in our earth, clear, but crystalline, reflecting and refracting light. Tolkien wanted the Silmarils to essentially be unbreakable, as an ultimate crafting achievement. Diamonds are a good analogy on all counts.
Feanor was the greatest of the Elven craftsmen, surpassing even Celebrimbor. Yet this was his pivotal work, a work of genius and inspiration that he did not believe he could ever equal. Perhaps a bad analogy, but I can remember times when I felt like I moved outside of the bounds of mortality, times when I would play basketball, and all my shots would hit...I was in "the zone", times on the tennis court when my serve went where I wanted it, my groundstrokes were there, my timing at net precise. I look back on those times, and know that I will likely never put in performances like that again. (Sorry, best analogy I had. However, unlike Feanor, I do not become so wrapped up in those experiences that nothing else is satisfying, that nothing else is good enough, that I become so jealous of anyone equalling my performances that I would sabotage someone who tried.
In the US a number of years ago, I think it was Carl Lewis trying to break Bob Beamon's long jump record (set in the Mexico City Olympiad). It was one of the most moving moments on television when an ad came on, just showing Bob Beamon. He said something to the effect of, "I hear someone is trying to break Bob Beamon's record. I hope you make it." Feanor was too proud, and never could have stood for someone to challenge his skill and ability.
You are right here, as well. Knowledge was the basis of Feanor's skill, with it he created the marvels of the Silmarils. They destroyed him.
Sorry if I got long winded, but I hope this provokes some thought.

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
TBV
  by - paul hawthorne (Mon Apr 14 22:25:02)
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Hi TBV, I meant luminary basically as an object, such as a celestial body, that gives light.

Nice post, Here are just a few thoughts!

The concept of the Oath is certainly food for thought! The ideas that Aule,CTS and you have mentioned are a curious shift of direction to explore.I'm also fasinated by the elements of achievement that you stated in reference to yourself and Feanor.

Feanor was too proud, and never could have stood for someone to challenge his skill and ability.
You are right here, as well. Knowledge was the basis of Feanor's skill, with it he created the marvels of the Silmarils. They destroyed him.

It could be said that the envious only hate the excellence they cannot reach,. In reference to Feanor, it is kind of being envious of himself in terms of his acomplishment, and the stagnation of his inventive, creative spirit.
I would like to know "What does this say about Aule", since he taught Feanor everything he knows!
Only Questions, My Friends --
  by - Broc (Mon Apr 14 07:23:52)
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UPDATED Mon Apr 14 07:27:17

Thanks for entertaining such an interesting thread.

Unfortunately, I must pose more questions, before I can attempt any answers to yours -- I have a copy of the Silmarillion, and am doing ongoing, multiple readings of each chapter before proceeding. This is a tough read, and I have so much to learn, while trying to catch up you y'all [thet's American 2nd personal ploo-ral].

Yavanna creates the Two Trees.

Does she 'give of herself" when she does so? Does some of her spirit/essence, go into these trees, in the making? In contrast, Saurson must put much of his essence into The One.

If Yavanna gives of herself, is she "lessened?" Is her power diminished?

Feanor takes the light of the Two Trees [which -- correct me if necessary -- are the lights before the creation of the Sun and the Moon, the Sun for Men who will be and the Moon for Elves who will be remembered after the ascension of men] and he captures this light [and its essence -- part of Yavanna?] in the Three Silmarils.

In so doing, does Feanor lessen himself, expose himselfself to mortality, to the possibility of introducing death into the world?

The Silmarils are indestructible -- right? No?

But, even though the Silmarils are taken by Morgoth, they cannoth be reproduced, even though the trees haven't been poisoned, yet. Why?

Becasue these isn't enough "essence" to add to this light? What could be the potential source of this essence, if not Feanor? Why can Feanor not replicate the Silmarils?

A point re: dualism/duality --

Is there a link between the Power of the Three Silmarils and the Three Elven Rings? What Power went into the creation of the Elven Rings of Power? What is the source of their Power? Or, am I barking up a wrong Yavanna-tree, here?

Remember, Tolkien says that the Silmarils are jewels, but they are also "alive," just as The One Ring is alive [?].

Can you "enlighten" me? [pun intended]

Best Wishes!

~ Broc

PS: Monkey wrench, just for fun -- anyone for arguing the Goldberry = Yavanna


As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
Re: Only Questions, My Friends --
  by - Elentari_V (Mon Apr 14 08:02:35)
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It seems you and I are on the same wavelength on a few ideas here, Broc.

After the destruction of the Trees Yavanna tells Manwe that there are some works that even the Valar can only undertake once, so yes I believe she imbued the Trees with some of her essence. Did it make her weaker, as Sauron with the One Ring, possibly but who can say how one would recognize a "weaker" Vala? Even at her weakest she would be immeasurably stronger than a Maia. (IMO)

I don't think Feanor was exposing himself to the possiblity of death by creating the Simarils. I don't remember any reference made to that, but perhaps the Valar of our own little community can comment on that.

The Simarils were not taken before the poisoning of the Trees, but after. Manwe asks Feanor for The Simarils after the Darkening and Feanor refuses. Perhaps Manwe or Yavanna would have had the power to undo the jewels and somehow recapture the essence of the Trees but that is unclear.

Hope I gave you a small bit of help.

bovilexia: The uncontrollable urge to lean out the window & yell "Moo!" every time you pass a cow.
Elentari
  by - paul hawthorne (Mon Apr 14 22:32:06)
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UPDATED Mon Apr 14 22:33:45

Hi Elentari, cool thoughts
Broc
  by - paul hawthorne (Mon Apr 14 22:28:27)
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UPDATED Mon Apr 14 22:32:54

Some interesting questions as usual Broc. But it's 1:30 gotta go for now! will be back tomorrow!
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - Elentari_V (Mon Apr 14 07:56:18)
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What are the effects of this intense light is it just visual, luminary, or spiritual! Or a combination in it’s over all radiance and effect. Is there significance to the intensity of this light that is comparable to the concept of pass over between life and death?

I am also curious about why you think Tolkien choose Diamonds to give us an idea of how they looked! Or as he said "Like the Crystal of Diamonds it appeared". It is also interesting to note that as projective powers diamonds touch the spirituality in us all. They are protective and afford us courage and peace. But that’s all I'm going to say for now!
Furthermore this also leads my thoughts in the direction of what I'll refer to as the "Area's of Invention". How knowledge can be a dangerous tool. It can be both creator and destroyer!



As usual Paul, you have started a thread worthy of the best replies we Ringnuts can strive for. Here is my feeble attempt.

I believe when Feanor created the Silmarils his intent was not for them to be a visual or luminary work. At that time the Trees still lived and thus provided these two properties for all of Middle-Earth. As quoted in your post, perhaps he did have a foreshadowing of the death of those Trees, but if so, I believe it was a subconscious knowledge. These jewels were to be Feanor’s greatest work, his highest achievement. Just as Sauron poured his strength into the One Ring, Feanor invested his skill, his knowledge, and his love into the Simarils. His very “soul”, if you will. Therefore I would say that first and foremost the gems possess a spirituality.

Of course after the darkening of the world they did indeed become a luminary entity, giving off a greater light when held by a purer soul.

Visually there is no question they had a profound effect. Illuvater said, “But the Quenti shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children.” There is no disputing that the Silmarils were the most beautiful creation ever to grace Middle-Earth, the combined essence of Yavanna’s great work with that of the most cunning craftsman of the Quenti. Again comparing them to the Ring, they have the ability to cause many beholders to covet them. However, as they were created with no original ill intent, they have no “foulness” inherit in them. As the evilness of the Ring was limited in it’s effects on Bilbo due to his innocent nature, so the virtue of the Silmarils caused a greater pain to the holder based upon that being’s greater malevolence.

I don’t know much about the properties of various gems and look forward to your full explanation for Tolkien’s possible reasons for choosing to use the diamond. My thoughts on that are purely from a layperson’s knowledge of the stone: 1) that it is the hardest substance known to us 2) that it is clear and therefore will not alter the pure light of the Trees and 3) that when carved into facets it gives off a prism of colors when light is shown through it.

As for knowledge being a dangerous tool, I’m sure the most basic comparison would be Tolkien’s Catholic faith. Adam and Eve eating of the Tree of Knowledge and bringing about the expulsion of the human race from the Garden of Eden.


bovilexia: The uncontrollable urge to lean out the window & yell "Moo!" every time you pass a cow.
burp
  by - Broc (Mon Apr 14 11:19:33)
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burp

As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - BelladonnaTook (Tue Apr 15 13:12:54)
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Paul, you elevate the quality of this board with every post. My little grey cells have never worked so hard!

The light of the Two Trees, and therefore of the Silmarils, was almost as a living thing. The book describes how light dripped from the Trees to form lakes of water and light combined. And unlike the light of the Trees, which waxed and waned, the light of the Silmarils was constantly bright. So in that sense I see the Silmarils as both luminary and spiritual – Feanor knew that he could never duplicate them, his greatest achievement, and so was unwilling to surrender them to Yavanna when she needed them to restore the Trees. Part of the light of his spirit is invested in them.

Mandos foretold that “the fates of Arda – earth, sea and air – are locked within them.” And indeed that is where they found their final resting places; one in the chasms of the earth, one in the ocean, and one in the heavens as a star. It is as if Mandos recognised something elemental in them, something almost beyond the powers of middle earth itself.

And this for me is the crux of the matter. It is as if Feanor, in creating jewels so supernaturally radiant and beautiful, has overstepped the boundaries of nature – perhaps even gone too far – and the Silmarils cannot exist in middle earth without causing damage to the fabric of the elves’ existence. For the Silmarils, although in no way evil in themselves, cause rifts and bloodshed between peoples, and through the oath of Feanor, continue to do so until they leave the bounds of middle earth.

They are Temptation. Every individual that owns them or sees them, becomes obsessed with them – with their light, and with seeing that light on themselves. Melkor, of course, covets them at once, and uses them to bring strife between the elves – but even the most virtuous individuals succumb to the temptation. It appears to be irresistable. Perhaps the only exception to this is Luthien, who only becomes more beautiful! Maybe her Maiar blood makes her more immune to their power.

Like Elentari, I see a comparison to the story of Adam and Eve’s temptation by the apple, which continues with the Noldor leaving Valinor (the banishment from the Garden of Eden) and the first kinslaying (Cain and Abel).

Now, I know nothing about gemology, so my explanation for the comparison to the crystal of diamonds is simply that the clarity of such a crystal would allow the light to shine from it unsullied and uncoloured. Disappointingly prosaic! I would love to hear more on that, a more poetic explanation would fit the spirituality of the Silmarils so much better.


Not all those who wander are lost
Thanks for such a good post! nm
  by - Broc (Tue Apr 15 14:12:57)
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As Shakesaid Speare in the Verchant of Menace -- "All that Golders is Not Glit!"
Re: Thanks for such a good post! nm
  by - paul hawthorne (Tue Apr 15 15:19:49)
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Broc said it best! WOW!
Re: Thanks for such a good post! nm
  by - BelladonnaTook (Wed Apr 16 06:15:48)
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Oh my!
All the responses to this thread have been wonderful to read - and we are inspired by the best.
Thanks Paul!

Not all those who wander are lost
Poetic thoughts on Feanor and Diamonds
  by - paul hawthorne (Tue Apr 15 18:48:22)
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Hi BelladonnaTook, poetic thoughts on Feanor and Diamonds inspired by you.

The shimmer of trees, the shaping of a flame imperishable
every cloud lined with something
dripping light forming clear lakes of water singing
revealing us with its purity
it too is soaked with diamonds

So it is not unwise then to say
that the Simarils are diamonds
that we breathe diamond
our lungs soaring, trading
our blood searching yet alone…

Does this explain
why it is so unbreakable
why it shines
while we are all precious…

that we too are covered with water in creation
burning bright with diamonds
shining through with beauty
surviving the death of trees…….

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Re: Poetic thoughts on Feanor and Diamonds
  by - BelladonnaTook (Wed Apr 16 06:19:48)
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Wow! That's beautiful.
You are one talented guy, Paul.


Not all those who wander are lost
Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - janora_76-1 (Wed Apr 16 12:46:01)
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perhaps tolkien can answer your first question-

there was light. there was the light of valinor made visible in the two trees of silver and gold.

tolkiens notes on the above are as follows

as far as symbolic or allegorical significance, light is such a primeval symbol in the nature of the universe, that it can hardly be analysed. the light of valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of art undivorced from reason that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or sub-creatively) and says that they are good- as beautiful. the light of the sun (or moon) is derived from the trees only after they were sullied by evil.

in regards to the second question diamonds have both refractive and reflective powers in its facets and substance, they are also perhaps the most precious stones on our world.

hope this helps
Hi Janora
  by - paul hawthorne (Wed Apr 16 15:16:12)
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UPDATED Thu Apr 17 17:08:44

Hi Janora, Interesting thoughts...It seems you are interpreting it as a kind of "euphoria of the senses" where all things interconnect. So long as virtuous ideals are maintained.
It could be said that the effects of such light, evolve together in Conscious and unconscious experiences and do not belong to different compartments of the mind, and they open us up to continuous shifts of illusion.
Re: Hi Janora
  by - janora_76-1 (Fri Apr 18 13:45:51)
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hi Paul. I wish they were my words, but as I said they are Tolkiens own.
As for myself the ideals in his books for the kind of world that could exist
with the morals and ethics he includes would be nice. I think on the whole that not so much the virtues are maintened but reserected (for want of a better word) that would enhance life rather than maintained (such a harsh word me thinks)
Some scattered remarks...
  by - Wajz-the-White (Wed Apr 16 15:53:40)
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This wisdom is from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Actually, yes. And it's known as GNOSIS or Gnosticism... something I am very interested in, as a matter of fact. I do believe that there lies a source of inherent knowledge within us, that we can learn to tap into.

How exactly that relates to gemstones is a bit beyond me I'm afraid. But perhaps the Silmarils, these shining diamonds, represent our own spirit, and to what it can aspire, when tended to by a loving, masterful hand (like Feanor's) A diamond is indestructible, multi-facetted, dazzling, colourful... yet also transparant and unchanging. All qualities to which most of us aspire, surely.

Yes, knowledge can be a creator and destroyer; that brings me back to Gnosis again (and even to Hinduism and the god Siva... but then it is widely accepted that gnosticism was for a large part based on the ancient Sanskrit Veda texts so the parallel is no coincidence) What the Gnosis teaches us is that there is no such thing as good or bad people. Just ordinary people doing good or bad deeds, driven by choice or necessity. In a way, Tolkiens baddies are all gnostic: not inherently bad, but driven to evil... choosing evil rather than simply being evil. Saruman is a glaring example, but Sauron also did not start off as a bad guy. Even Melkor/Morgoth did not.

Interesting food for thought, Paul! I'll ponder on the subject of Tolkien and Gnosticism some more... maybe it will amount to a separate post on the topic.

Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
impressive cohesion of thought
  by - paul hawthorne (Wed Apr 16 21:40:53)
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Hi Wajz, sorry about the late response watching the NHL play-offs again Toronto lost in overtime.
Anyway;

Interesting food for thought, Paul! I'll ponder on the subject of Tolkien and Gnosticism some more... maybe it will amount to a separate post on the topic.

“Gnosticism” impressive cohesion of thought! I'll mull it over too..
I am excited by the shift of direction... "Wajz the wise".
Re: impressive cohesion of thought
  by - Wajz-the-White (Thu Apr 17 05:26:37)
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watching the NHL play-offs again Toronto lost in overtime
WHOOPS! You lost me there buddy... Sports, huh? More later! (Still pondering gnosticism)

Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
Re: impressive cohesion of thought
  by - paul hawthorne (Thu Apr 17 17:12:50)
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Still pondering gnosticism...
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Re: impressive cohesion of thought
  by - Wajz-the-White (Fri Apr 18 00:24:38)
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Me too! Had to pick my mom up from airport yesterday and did not get round to more pondering Maybe today (it seems kinda slow at work...)

Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
impressive cohesion of thought and "wajz's mom"
  by - paul hawthorne (Fri Apr 18 10:29:15)
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Wajz, would you ask your mom to come on board and have a chat. I would like to here what she has to say!
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Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - Ptero-valley (Fri Apr 18 13:14:32)
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"Oh man, now I've got start watching the Avalanche! It's that time of year again ...

Sorry, Paul, I didn't even notice your post until tonight. My head's been in the clouds for the past few days ...

I can't really refer much to Tolkien on this, since I don't know all the background story to LotR.

But when I was taking contemplative psychology classes with the Naropa Buddhists back in the 1980s, diamonds and precious jewels were held in high esteem. Not for their material value, but because they had the ability to reflect light in a way that characterized the meta-world of energy that's always surrounding us (but usually dulled from awareness by everyday reality.)

In the Naropa program, students practiced certain types of awareness practices, often in color-coded rooms whose colors brought out certain "ego patterns" when one meditated in them. At that time, the class also took small doses of MDMA, a sort of psychedelic designer drug that was used as a stepping stone to Buddha consciousness and the quality of universal love that's the foundation of spiritual experience.

After taking this class for a few weeks, I quite definitely went into a world in which time became eternal, reality became patterns of energy, and light took on an almost reverential ambiance —— in which the simplest everyday objects indeed took on the quality of rare and translucent jewels.

It was all a WONDERFUL time, and reflected and refracted light have never been quite the same for me since! I believe I temporarily entered a world that is usually the realm of great artists and poets (and of course philosophers like Tolkien).

Unfortunately, MDMA is now illegal because kids eventually got hold of it and turned it into a party drug called ecstacy and began abusing it at rave parties.

It's too bad, because as part of a meditative discipline (taught by some of the best Buddhist teachers in the world) it really opened my heart to the reality of a sacred path through all the different energies of spirit.

So that's my take on diamonds and precious crystals, anyway ..."
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Re: The Silmarils,Gemology & Tolkien
  by - athene-5 (Sun Jun 29 13:24:56)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
bump
  by - athene-5 2 days ago (Thu Jul 17 20:21:22)
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
 
 
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