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Sir_Big_V
(Tue Apr 22 09:59:52)
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 UPDATED Tue Apr 22 10:09:54 |
I was suffering from some stray and random thoughts, perhaps due to excessive cold medicine, and thought to share them.
I have noticed that in "fantasy" worlds, like Middle-earth, where there is "magic" involved, society does not evolve and develop, but remains stagnant.
For instance, the Elves had created nothing new in Millenia, and they had the most time to learn, grow and expand the knowledge base. The Hobbits had lived as they lived in the time of the main characters for over 1000 years, with little change to their lives. In Donaldson's boods, there have been no new "scientific" developments for thousands of years, until Rand starts his schools. Think about all those series, especially the longer ones. Where there is magic, there is no deveolopment of society or technology, and the people seem content with that situation, of course, knowing nothing different.
Doe the existence of magic negates the need for discovery where there are "easier" ways of doing things than manual labor?
In Tolkien's world, the only new technology is the explosive Sarumans troops use to break through the wall in Helm's Deep. There are no knew weapons, improvements in armor, etc.
The next step in this cycle is this:
We hit the start of the Fourth Age of the Sun in M-e. The Elves (creatures of magic(?) are leaving. The Wizards are leaving. The powerful magic artifacts (the Rings) are destroyed or leaving. The Dwarves (the essence of "unmagic"? given how the Rings of the Dwarves had very little power over them) are in decline, soon to fade away and die off. The Ents are in decline, either becoming "treeish" or dying. Bombadil may very well be the last "power" of a magical sense in M-e, but his power is limited to his lands, and could be described as "the power of music, or song", which in Tolkiens world, was the power of creation.
The KEY QUESTION...
Given the departure of magic from M-e, will that necessitate the birth of the inventive process, as people start to look for better ways of doing things, now that there is no magic left or will society "stagnate" and just continue as it has without change?
Will there be change due to the end of the War of the Rings, which will lead to stagnation, as the status quo becomes again the norm, or will that be the impetus for societies to learn, study and research to prevent future repeats of the circumstances they encountered in the war?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Great idea! On one hand as it was sort of seen as a early history of possibly our world, yes things will develop. On another hand I don't think Tolkien thought htis was alla good thing. Remember the factory and Scouring of the Shire, and even the industrial Isengaurd. The scars left behind in the Shire, the dealth of part of the forests around Isengaurd. etc. I guess the whole thing is the hope to use knowlegde and technology responsably? Sorry I'm rabling, I have to go get Son ready for school now.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.I do not think they will sing to me.
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Interesting question and comparison. The "evil" in the world was representative of the excessive use of industry, much of which already existed, but just grew bigger. What about the development of better plows, new weapons, schools, books and reading?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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kiplingkat
(Tue Apr 22 10:11:38)
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| UPDATED Tue Apr 22 10:17:03 |
If I'm reading you right, is the inventive process the necessary replacement of "magick"? I don't Tolkien had that in mind, because Saruman was a proponent of invention and mechanization and he's a villian.
When I read the books, I almost feel as if the "older races", like the elves manipulate the Magick without found in nature, hence their stagnation. They only grow and change as their world grows and changes. But Man's gift is to manipulate the magick within; the imagination and personal strength that propells the individual towards personal growth.
Not quite on topic, but I that's what I got from the transition.
How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?
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Thank you. Saruman and Sauron, both of the order of Aule, were into crafts, as were the Dwarves. The only new thing Saruman "created" (aside from his "improvements" to the Uruk -hai) was the explosive used at Helm's Deep. Everything else was just the use of available technology at a larger scale...ie industrialization. I am thinking in terms of the overall creative process. The only art we see is centuries old, although songs are popular, but they are the preferred means in an illiterate society of transferring knowledge and history from generation to generation. Take it also out of the realm of Tolkien, to other "fantasy" series you have read. Are there exceptions (or is it the rule) that societies in these books will have magic and technology, innovation, creative growth...at the same time.
I love your analogy of the Elves (and perhaps Bombadil) reflecting Earth Magic, and utilizing the innate power of the Earth as "magic" while men use what is inside THEM.
I think you were more on topic than you realized...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Can't it be both? Tolkien may have thought (consciously or subconsciously) along the lines that V has outlined, he might have thought of magic and invention as antithetical to each other. But Tolkien mourns the passing of the torch rather than celebrates it.
There's a passage in ROTK where Gimli and Legolas are discussing the realms of Man and his legacy. It's really brief, but telling. They don't really phrase it this way, but I interpret their conclusion to be along the lines of "The quality of Man's work is not up to par, but despite that Men will inevitably become the dominant race."
Might that have had a deeper meaning? That "magical" things have a quality that permeates the things themselves, while "invented" or manufactured things have only superficial quality? But that on the flipside magic is difficult to learn while invention is not?
My time is limited today, but I'm going to have to end here, but this is tangential to some analysis I've been discussing on the ROTK board with mentalcritic and Aule in this thread:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167260/board/thread/1253960
Great topic, V, and good insight, kip.
Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.
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Is magic difficult to learn, or just only an inate ability...which cannot be learned?
How also does this concept work with or against other fantasy literature you have encountered?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Great post! I'll have to think about this and get back later, but what a terrific subject!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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ty
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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good queston bigv
maybe the ending of the War of the Ring will lead to an Industrial Revolution in ME 
I could have had class!I could've been a contender.Instead of a bum.Which is what I am.
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That is kind of the question...think of it this way...to go from an agrarian society with little far off trade, where all areas are pretty much self sufficient (ie...Hobbits don't create goods for sale in Minas Tirith...generally speaking...) to an industrial revolution is a big step, but to go to a society where there is intellectual growth and experimentation, development, perhaps, of a better plough, or new weapons (like a crossbow) or...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Definitely a Post Of The Week nomination as far as I am concerned!
Yes, I wondered about the same thing, especially in relation to the Elves and their unchanging, ever-BEING sort of culture. Never evolving, but always perfect, flawless and fulfilled. Quite boring, when you think about it... to spend eternity without ever progressing or growing. Inconceivable, for a human mind that always seeks to improve itself, always wonders, always searches...
That is what Elves found so fascinating about humans, the way their mortality pushes them to highs and lows they themselves lack in their own lives. Humans live on borrowed time and feel the urge to make their lives count, to make a difference, to cheat death by leaving their mark on the world. Elves do not feel this typically human urge.
Yes, the Fourth Age would be the Age of Man, and yes, that would inevitably see more exploring, more science, more "progress" (I use the term cautiously!)... Perhaps eventually, like the Numenoreans, Men would even send out ships to the West to seek out what lands lie there. Whatever the case, I doubt if stagnation will ever be the norm when there's humans involved.
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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The interesting part of that is that there are stretches where Elves have gotten creative, but only in fits and starts.
Feanor, learning from Aule, the art of craftsmanship, created the Silmarils...Celebrimbor created the Three Rings...of course, their homes were built, etc. but...they had a few brief spots where they created, but otherwise left that to the Dwarves, and others.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Yes, I was thinking of Feanor and Celebrimbor... they seem to be exceptions to the rule though, which probably accounts for their fame.
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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The interesting follow up is the significant "downside" of their creativity. The power of the Elves, while sustained for a long time due to the power of the Rings, also left the works of the Elves vulnerable to Sauron after he made the One Ring.
Of course, we know the pain and suffering, as well as acts of greatness, caused by the creation of the Silmarils...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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[Asking for a flame] It's because fantasy books generally have very little depth outside of their main plot [/Asking for a flame]
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 Troll!
You should try reading them sometime, before you pass judgement.
How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?
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Sometimes I think they just aren't capable of it, kip.
 And you have my beaux
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I second that emotion.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I like that. At least someone is picking them out quickly...
"If I had a hammer..."
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Not that difficult...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Which just shows why some are describing you as a troll, making blanket statements which are not only too general, but also blatantly untrue.
I feel bad for you.
But then again, maybe I should feel hopeful. You have so much room to grow an mature, and almost any growth will be notable improvement...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Okay, the positive me has to say that in no way do I see that humans will "learn, study and research to prevent future repeats of the circumstances they encountered in the war". Humans do as they please and just because that cycles them in and out of conflict is in no way a deterent. I am in such a good mood .
Now, on to the real question about magic and the inventive process. I can see that if a being has the capability to use magic it would not necessitate making all sorts of new contraptions to do things. I don't think it negates the learning and schools and studying the world around you. Those types of progresses should always be made. Gandalf was much stronger and better than Saruman because of his interest in and study of ALL of the creatures and peoples and histories of Middle Earth.
I do agree that humans are always looking for progress and not always for good progress. I think that many or most humans have a desire to NOT have magic as a part of life. I guess it is so much easier for our minds to always have things that we can explain and understand around us. I think that Tolkien did regret the coming of the 4th Age and the end of the elves because Earth was to be left to humans alone. I regret it every time I have to read the end of the stories. A world without magic is dying. I like Kat's idea that the magic comes from the world itself. I also believe it comes from inside each individual- look at Aragorn or Sam. And of course you know BigV I think it comes from elsewhere as well. I think the magic is there and it is a choice as to whether you harness it or not- some individuals harness it better than others.
I do not see progress and magic as exclusive entities. I do not think that magic left because the elves and the Ring etc left. I think that the beings who had the most understanding of it did leave but we were not left without it. (Hmmm just noticed the slip into "we" there- oh well.)
I think that humans will progress in the 4th Age for better and for worse with and without the help of magic.
How's that? I am not sure that was what you were looking for. Mostly ramblings I'm afraid. But excellent post (thanks for the pm) and I really have enjoyed the responses!
Don't just be good- be good for something.
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Humans do seem to have a particular inability to learn from past mistakes. It is sad, sometimes.
I think I disagree with your thoughts on the Gandalf and Saruman comparison. I think Saruman MAY have been more powerful, originally. He lost some of that power as his "fall" progressed.
I think the big difference between them was Saruman's pride, which Gandalf didn't have. Because of pride, Saruman focused on his studies, in his little tower, tried to use the Palantir, and was caught by Sauron. Saruman did not pay attention to the Ents, though he once had, because he did not see the "power" in them. Gandalf was wiser, Saruman more powerful, and again, Gandalf did not have the "fatal flaw" which Saruman did.
I agree that in real life, humans desire and search for "a better way of doing things" which does not seem to appear in fantastic literature. I also think that the human aversion to magic is (for some people) religious. I also think that some have a negative aversion because it is not something natural to us. The Elves of Tolkien's world use what we consider "magic" as a natural part of who they are.
I agree, there is sadness at the start of the Fourth Age. So much of wonder is going to pass or fade away. I guess that is my cue to leave, as well...
A world without magic is dying.
Interesting thought. I don't know how to react.
Do Aragorn and Sam harness magic, or just use their inate goodness, or does that fall into your definition of magic.
I also know your other source of magic, but we have to put ourselves in Tolkien's world, and know that perspectives there are somewhat different...
Very interesting thoughts, coming after my opening rambles...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Back again! I had 4-H tonight!
My definition of magic goes beyond the "usual" definition of magic, beyond tricks and moving things with your brain etc. I define it more broadly and include what some consider miracles and some consider magic and some consider luck and some consider talent. All those things fall into it for me. Magic is awe-inspiring whatever or however it is accomplished.
I think Aragorn and Sam harness more than just an inate goodness. They harness belief in themselves and in a cause and in goodness. They harness a strength that not everyone has and even fewer use. They harness the ability to read a situtation carefully and quickly. All of those things (and much more) comes together in them and creates magic. Because they are good they use it for good and are able to turn away evil and do amazing feats. And I am one of those that believes that Tolkien indicates that Fate or Power or whatever you want to call it (both good and evil) works through people to accomplish things. (That's how I read it; not saying that's what he SAYS so please no one lecture me). And that is magic as well. Aragorn was raised by the elves and Sam always believed and cherished the stories. Maybe those things allowed them to be more open to that. I don't know.
For me, I guess, magic (or whatever you feel an appropriate term might be) is there. Whether it is looked for or not, is not up to it. When you used the term wonder that really hit me as it! It is like when a child sees something wonderous for the first time and turns to you with huge eyes and says, "It's magic." I occasionally still get to experience that myself and it is good. I suppose that makes my mind a bit simple but there you are. Someone using their talents and abilities to do things that most others can't is magic. They aren't supernatural and yes maybe we all are somehow capable of doing the same thing. But we don't and they are magic. It's not fire coming out of a wand but none the less.
Oh, and what I meant about Saruman was that he did not study what he didn't think would bring him more power. He'd have found his blessed Ring on his own if he'd thought the Hobbits were worth anything. Gandalf did not suffer from pride that is true and I also think he was not power-hungry. Therefore, he knew the benefit of having friends of all kinds and learning about friends of all kinds (from the moths to the Ents). And they in turn lent him their power and magic when needed. It was not a lot, but it tipped the scales a few times.
Don't just be good- be good for something.
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I'm probably just repeating things that have already been said...but I wrote an essay not long ago on industry in LOTR, in which I kind of said that magic - or the Elves - equated to the kind of working with the earth to produce goods and developing at a reasonable pace, and that the uber-progression of Saruman (and Sauron, but mainly Saruman) was, well, evil. Of course it got very complicated along the way!
But to stop prattling on and to try in my own special way to answer your questions...
I don't think that society will stagnate. I think Tolkien's point was that while natural and 'magic' ways of doing things were at one time productive and useful, change, progression and evolution are inevitable. So the removal of the Elves simply makes way for newer methods...I suppose it does necessitate the birth of the inventive process. But surely those processes were already in place...? Now I'm confusing myself.
 This is why I avoid intellectual threads, I can't pull myself together enough to answer them!
 the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
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Sir_Big_V
(Tue Apr 22 16:22:56)
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| UPDATED Tue Apr 22 16:23:12 |
Thanks for visiting my tree...
I can see the Elves and their affinity for nature, which might even be the source of their "magic", although the Elves themselves really deny "magic." What we consider magic is just a part of their love of nature.
I think that my emphasis was that society HAS (in the books) stagnated, perhaps because of the element of magic (rings, Elves and Wizards), and I am wondering if that stagnation will end with the passing of the Elves and the dawn of the Age of Men, the Fourth Age. When society has not changed (aside from birth, death, rising of empires, etc) in thousands of years, the technology does not grow and develop, is it because of magic? Would the development of technological innovation have influenced the story in other ways?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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 Do you mean the development of technological innovation in Tolkien's world or in Middle Earth?
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
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Yes.
Are you referring to Tolkiens mid 20th c. England...Tolkien's world?
I was referring to Middle-earth, and other fantasy worlds (that's why I put the "+" in the subject heading).
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Right.
Now I'm confused some more.
So I'm going to leave this thread to people who know what they're talking about.
Delusional squirrels are not of use here.
the bells the bells! SANCTUARY! The bells are my friends you know...
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With what are you confused?
(BTW...going away for half an hour or more...will reply when I "poke" back...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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sarcas
(Tue Apr 22 16:10:20)
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Hmmm, difficult question.
One of your basic assumtions seems to be that society does not evolve in fantasy worlds. I have some questions to check if this assumption is correct.
Is it stagnation or just slow progress?
Could the lack of evolvement be just the fact that the stories are set in a medieval-like world, where no modern sciences exist?
Is magic just another form of science?
What are the indications for social evolvement? Is it the existence of technology? A new way to elect a leader?
We had our own lack of technological development from old egypt to the middle ages, so does the level of technology proof anything?
What magic did the hobbits rely upon to hinder them from developing new technology?
Is the social system that they have a result of them having magical powers?
Why should they change their social system if it works (general high level of satisfaction/happiness in the population)?
Is the situation of a hobbit really inferior to the situation in our times?
So after thinking about it, I think that magic in general does not hider technological development in fantasy worlds, because with technology the average productivity increases. The advantage of technology is that it is available for everybody, magic is usually limited to a few people.
The social system varies with every fantasy world. The fact that monarchy is the choice for most of the authors is IMHO due to the fact that it fits to the medieval setting.
The effects in LOTR are a bit different, because the changes are so great after the ring-war. The preserving powers of the rings are gone, governments change, a race leaves ME, etc.
So the remaining population has to adopt to the new circumstances. Usually this comes with some new developments. In the long run I think that they will make a slow but steady progress, just like before.
It is in men that we must place our hope
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I was looking at this in a broad sense, even comparing author to author and different worlds. What I have noticed is that in general, these fantasy realms do not seem to have any sort of development at a societal or technological level.
For instance, as mentioned, the Hobbits have been living the same way for over 1000 years. The only significant developments were pipeweed, and the accidental invention of golf.
In a world at war for thousands of years, no one has invented a crossbow...I do not recall anyone using flails or polearms from the books. How about a development of a new type of plough? Development does not need to be high tech, but merely a change.
There are changes in territorial control, but that is about it. The Dwarves have actually lost some of the skills they learned from Aule. There has been some regression there, and their techniques were taught, not learned.
I have tried to look at this over the span of several different "fantasy" novels. For the most part (and with a couple of exceptions) they always seen to start and end with the same type of society or technological level. Again, I am not talking about going from a horse and buggy to an internal combustion engine, but perhaps going from a bow to a crossbow.
Could the lack of evolvement be just the fact that the stories are set in a medieval-like world, where no modern sciences exist?
Again, yes, but is modern technology a necessary sign of advancement?
Magic can, in some societies, be seen as a form of science, especially where it is a learned skill, like in the "Forgotten Realms" books, as opposed to something inborn, like the Elves of Tolkien's world.
I do not suppose I am speaking so much of a magic skill actively hampering development, but more the existence of magic in a written world occasioning a lack of development of other sorts.
Perhaps part of my theory is simply in the minds of the writers...this is the level the society is at, this is where it will stay, even if the scope of the story spans 10,000 years.
As far as we know, Hobbits lives have been pretty much unchanged for centuries, in part due to the (unknown) protection of Gandalf and the Rangers.
Yes, if a societal or governmental system works, it will stay essentially the same, but there are always changing circumstances that cause small changes in how the system works, or fails to.
The effects in LOTR are a bit different, because the changes are so great after the ring-war. The preserving powers of the rings are gone, governments change, a race leaves ME, etc.
So the remaining population has to adopt to the new circumstances. Usually this comes with some new developments. In the long run I think that they will make a slow but steady progress, just like before
Here is my only real concern with what you wrote, in that I do not think any progress has been made through the end of the Third Age.
Otherwise, very interesting thoughts. I hope I have clarified my questions and beginning thoughts for you with my answers to your questions...
We haven't had something to disagree about in a while...time to get back to tradition?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Intriguing thoughts, bigv. I'm not quite sure where to post this reply, but hopefully it won't get lost here.
In a world at war for thousands of years, no one has invented a crossbow...
This is something that struck me as well. I suppose in the end we must ask what motivators there are for development and whether or not the absence of magic would affect them.
War has always, it would seem, been an effective motivator for change, and it does seem strange that in a world so marked by war there has been little attempt to improve on methods of destruction. All the more curious since magic does not, in LOTR, always seem to play a very prominent role in combat.
Perhaps this leads us to conclude (and unfortunately I haven't had time to go through all the posts here) that the slow rate of advance, or even the lack of it, is a very useful and deliberate device for authors of fantasy who wish to put across points that might otherwise be lost.
"in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing"
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It is interesting in that, unlike many series, magic plays almost no role in combat in LotR, and the exceptions are usually on the side of the bad guys. Notice that Gandalf, one of the few capable of notable magic, using said magic, in defense of life, against creatures similarly powerful to him. Although, in the Mines, when they are surrounded by orcs, prior to the arrival of the Balrog, he could have given that staff a swing, and sent those that survived scurrying to the dark corners of the world, he did not, because that was not his mission. He was a guide and a counsellor.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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sarcas
(Wed Apr 23 12:02:02)
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Ok, let me start with LOTR.
Since I still have to buy a original version of the book, I cannot directly quote from the books. Sorry ´bout that but I will try to be as precise as possible without using quotes.
Tolkien gives some background in his prologue "About Hobbits". He describes the the social development and some progress the Hobbits made by copying things from other races. After they crossed the Brandywine-river (start of the shire reckoning of time) they began to use barns, they started to build houses. The Hobbits at the river started to use the river with boats. They established a working post system and a kind of police. They started to elect a Leader (which had admittedly no real function besides hosting celebrations).
I think this can be interpreted as evolvement of the Hobbits, although the process is slow.
Talking about fantasy literiture is like talking about Pizza. Everything is basically the same, but everyone single one is different. So talking about magic in Fantasy very complicated, because every author sees and describes a different magic. The magic of Eddings is different than the magic of Dungeons and Dragons.
Fantasy writers have often neglected technological development, but I think that is due to the mixture of different reasons. One is the fact that in our own history, the medieval time was a dark age. Knowledge was lost and the level of tecknology was decreasing in many areas. So if a story takes place in a medieval setting, it comes natural, that the technological level does not change.
Another reason is the huge amount of time, that you have to spent as an author, if you want to include technological advancement in your book. You have to do much more research. If you are writing an epic novel than the least thing you care about is if the people 300 jears ago already had crossbows or not. That is the advandtage of being a author of fantasy literiture. If you say it is so then it is so.
Do you think that in the Belgariad from David Eddings the lack of development is due to magic? I would contribute that to the existence of the gods, who shaped mankind, so that the peoples are just little copies from their gods. (The best example is the god UL and the Ulgos, where Religion is the main point in life and society stagnates). That would make religion, not magic, the main force behind stagnation.
The crucial point in every story is how and how much magic is present in the fantasy worlds.
- Magic is widely believed to be only cheap tricks. Magic works secretly.
George R.R. Martin - A Song Of Ice And Fire series
Robin Hobb - Farseer Triology
J.V. Jones - Master And Fool
- Magic is known, but it´s use is rare and seldom witnessed by the general population
Melanie Rawn - Dragonprince
Jennifer Roberson - Chronicles of the Cheysuli
Tad Williams - The Dragonbone Chair
- Magic can be witnessed, but not many can use it
J.R.R. Tolkien - LOTR
Micheal A. Stackpole - A Hero Born
Robin Hobb - Liveship Trader
Dave Duncan - A Man Of His Word series
Robert Jordan - The Wheel Of Time series
- magic is known and widely used
L.E.Modesitt,Jr - Recluce series
Terry Pratchett - Discworld series (I just had to bring it in, Pratchett is so great  )
Piers Anthony - Xanth series
Of course these cathegories are weak at best and the boarders are floating, but the last cathegory is really interesting, because the society has to be build around the magic. So what is the solution of the authors of these books (Pratchett aside)?
If everbody can use magic, the need for technology decreases. If the use of magic is rare or difficult, then the technological development goes on, but on slightly different subjects. Technology is used where magic cannot do the trick and vice versa. Magic basically becomes another craft. But that does not stop progress. People still learn new things and keep on inventing. The same is true for the social part. Magic does only shift power to a new fraction of magic wielders, but if magic is very common and everybody has access to magic then the advantage of the magic wielders decreases again.
So my conclusion would be, that in general magic does not hinder development of any kind, with the exception of those books, where the magic is used intentionally by the author to do it or where the easy use of common magic prevents the advancement of some parts of those sciences that are already covered by magic.
It is in men that we must place our hope
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My first argument with you is the pizza analogy. First, I think fantasy goes better with a nice glass of wine, and pizza matches better with beer. I also do not like to see my fantasy novels smothered in pepperoni or mozzarella cheese. Damn you!
Actually, that is a good analogy, but I could not resist the opportunity a chuckle. The posts I have been involved with tonight have been pretty morbid.
I like the way you have categorized the some fantasy with the type and style of magic. I also agree that religion can be a force of stagnation. It frequently rigidly defines its terms, and does not allow for independent thought.
I also like the "sliding scale" you suggest where the stagnation of technology is inversely proportional to the availability and use of magic in the society and world in question.
Altogether, some very thoughtful and thought provoking answers.
Thank you for putting for the effort. I do appreciate it.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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"I have noticed that in "fantasy" worlds, like Middle-earth, where there is "magic" involved, society does not evolve and develop, but remains stagnant.
For instance, the Elves had created nothing new in Millenia, and they had the most time to learn, grow and expand the knowledge base. The Hobbits had lived as they lived in the time of the main characters for over 1000 years, with little change to their lives.
It seems that you mix a little two different things, though they are connected, development of sosiety and technical progress. I do not think that we have enough proof from the books that there was no any technical progress in Middle Earth. Approximately before XVII century progress in our world was also kind of slow. And in the books (Hobbit and LOTR) we have a span of barely 70 years, which historically in negligible from progress point of view. Hobbits were not very learned people, but one could venture to suggest that they were slowly improving gardening tools for example. Elves had much more knowledge, but technical progress in their case might have been slowed down on purpose, because any progress should not have harmed nature. And probably they did not work on things they did not need (electricity? ). People of Gondor were living in such proximity to Mordor, it is hard to imagine them not trying to improve their weapons. In other words, certain progress had to be there, but very slow, like before Middle Ages in our world.
I would say that the fact that magic leaving Middle Earth could definitely give a boost to inventing and progress.
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Very interesting thoughts...I was actually looking even at texts like the Silmarillion, etc. We had technological progress of a sort with the advances in ship building by the Numenoreans (hey! they lived on an island!), but otherwise, we get references or parts of the story over 20,000 years.
Would it be more accurate to say that the early Men learned some things early, and benefitted from the wisdom of the Numenoreans for a time. But again, what about crossbows?
Also, (believe it or not I have been saying...) look at other works of fantastic literature, by the Donaldson's, the Eddings, the Goodkinds, Forgotten Realms, etc. the pattern (to me, anyway) appears the same...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I wish cold medicine had this kind of insight-inspiring effect on me! (If I ever post while on cold medicine, I promise to delete it when I'm sober again.)
Two disconnected thoughts:
Adaptive behavior has a way of winning out over clever and powerful but static skills. Neanderthals were stronger and faster than cro-magnon man -- so it was the cro-magnons who had to develop tools, which turned out to be the winning strategy. One could draw an analogy between magic and complex innate instincts, in which the mechanism is not consciously understood but the behavior is integrated with the surroundings in a beautiful, complex, and almsot mystical way. It may advance over time, but not generally reactively, within an individuals life time. The messier and more error-ridden process of adaptive thought and behavior does have a way of winning out -- and it's often not a graceful way. (An unsustainable analogy in many ways, I know.)
Throughout this thread it has been natural to draw a contrast between magic and technology, particularly leading edge, high-tech, progress-oriented fields. I work in a very high-tech focused environment -- the processors have to double in speed every 14-18 months to be competitive, without increasing cost. So, this will sound odd, but... at this extreme, it starts to become rather magical all over again. The systems are too complex for any one person to understand them. Ask anyone I work with; we'll all tell you it's a miracle that the microprocessor in your computer works at all. It's a thought I can't express well, but maybe there's someone out there that has this sense also.
Out of curiosity, what visual image do you associate with "technology"? Do you think of Saruman's machines? A computer? A space shuttle? A DNA helix? Does "magic" have a visual association?
"If you're not for yourself, then who will be for you? If you're only for yourself, what are you?"
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Great thoughts...from a field I cannot comprehend...
When I am referring to "magic", (best definition I can come up with at this point) I am thinking about power which is not mechanical in nature, yet transcends what we would think of in terms of "normal human experience." Before someone gets clever, I am not talking about the weightlifter who can bench press 600 lbs, either.
In this context, as far as "technology" is concerned, mostly I am thinking of developments in the societal development status quo...???
For instance, to go from Legolas bow (essentially a simple bow) to a hand cranked crossbow (perhaps lesser range, but more armor piercing punch) is a technological improvement. To go from a plow which is man wielded and is basically a stick with a sharp point, to a metal "pronged" plowed pulled by oxen is technological progress.
I think I first started to notice this years ago reading Eddings. The books cover a myriad of time elements, but the weapon technology, etc. never improves. There are no new developments. I am not even talking about things like Star Trek, where you have very high technology, but no real magic...sort of.
Does that make more sense? If you read the Silmarillion, the weapon technology of the Elves fighting Morgoth is essentially the same as the technology of the various races fighting Sauron in LotR.
I very much like your analogy in terms of the "magic" you seem to work with, generating high speed and high tech, but that is a different arena, not even within the realm of what happens in these and other books...but it is a great analogy...It seems like magic.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Thanks for your responses! I think you chose interesting details to elaborate the concept. They make sense, and they reinforce to me that my work is a little like both -- magic and technology.
I think I know what you mean by "Star Trek, where you have very high technology, but no real magic...sort of". I was actually just writing the other day about how the jargon in my workplace has eerie similarities to Star Trek at times. The words mean different things to me, but I deal with phase shift anomalies, inability to recharge the capacitors quickly enough, and so on. There is a deux ex machina element which occurs here as in fantasy. However, my days are also filled with mystical incantations, reliance upon ancient wisdom and languages no longer spoken but known by a reclusive few, unexplained phenomena best left unquestioned, and the something-from-nothing sense of magic. It can be dangerous to mistake the increasingly organic, living feel of our creations for goodness -- some of the horrible creations of Saruman were (in a sense, at the least) alive. Well, that's more food for thought for me.
"If you're not for yourself, then who will be for you? If you're only for yourself, what are you?"
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Well "simple" creativity is a kind of magick, it's creating something from nothing. Making something that wasn't there before. In that sense inventiveness is also magick.
Rose had an excellent point above, technology in and of itself is not evil, but the use to which it is put can be like oh say, xlon-b and cremation ovens, or it can be increedibly good, like medical technology and the internet . Speaking as the resident witch, magick is the same way. In and of itself, Magick is just Magick, but the uses to which one puts can be good or evil.
I think, at least about magick, Tolkien felt the same way. Saruman started out being the "best" of the Miar, but he turned. Not his magick turned, or his inventiveness turned. He did and proceeded to use those crafts to evil ends. Saruman and Gandalf show that it isn't the craft itself that is good or bad, only those that use it.
In that sense, I don't think inventiveness and technology is evil. Technology without restraint can be a very bad thing, which is what we are facing in our environment now. But in and of itself, if used wisely, technology canb be very beneficial. And though we know that Tolkien was anti-industrialism, I'm not sure he was anti-inventiveness or anti-technology. I don't have anything to back that up either way, I'm just saying I don't know.
Must ruminate more on this thread.
How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?
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I like when you ruminate. I will respond to this post if I wake up in the morning...If not, I will wake up in the afternoon, and do the same...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I would first take the comment you made responding to Rose, and expand it by noting that ANY power is neither good, nor evil. The choice of how it is exercised and the purposes behind that choice determine ultimately which it is.
Very good point about the Saruman...however I think it interesting that if you read Tolkiens notes about the selection of the five Istari, Saruman's fatal flaw, his pride, already exists there, in front of the Valar. It is a long term flaw for him, and not something he developed in M-e.
hmmmmmmmmmmmm
BTW...Kip, if you haven't read Unfinished Tales...I very much recommend it.(Not a criticism...just a thought...I am currently rereading it...and loving every page!)
In that sense, I don't think inventiveness and technology is evil. Technology without restraint can be a very bad thing, which is what we are facing in our environment now. But in and of itself, if used wisely, technology canb be very beneficial. And though we know that Tolkien was anti-industrialism, I'm not sure he was anti-inventiveness or anti-technology. I don't have anything to back that up either way, I'm just saying I don't know.
I agree completely with this. As discussed, no power source is evil inherently. It is interesting also how magic vs. invention has spread to so many side topics on this thread...it has been tough keeping up some times...but very rewarding.
Thank you for continuing to ruminate and follow up with you thoughts...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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All of a sudden...I am flashing between an image of you, an image of Mr. Scott saying, "we kin't push 'er any faster Keptin!" and Mickey Mouse as "The Sorcerer's Apprentice". 
Interesting thoughts...I should have known someone would show up with the concept of deus ex machina.!
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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"There is a deux ex machina element which occurs here as in fantasy."
Oh, yes, I forgot to comment on that....I was wondering if GM had gaint eagles that picked her up when her car breaks down. If so, Tres' Kewl!
Just teasing...
How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?
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If not, maybe Tulkas hooks her up with some giant greyhounds for the same purpose?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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"Throughout this thread it has been natural to draw a contrast between magic and technology, particularly leading edge, high-tech, progress-oriented fields. I work in a very high-tech focused environment -- the processors have to double in speed every 14-18 months to be competitive, without increasing cost. So, this will sound odd, but... at this extreme, it starts to become rather magical all over again. The systems are too complex for any one person to understand them. Ask anyone I work with; we'll all tell you it's a miracle that the microprocessor in your computer works at all. It's a thought I can't express well, but maybe there's someone out there that has this sense also."
Total sense, and good point as well. The more we learn about physics, the closer we get to metaphysics, the substance of the universe and the subtlety of the grand design. Things that happen between quantum particles that we can't explain. How a bunch of animo acids become life. It's almost like we coming full circle back the the greek naturalists.
How would you feel about life if Death was your older sister?
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Interesting observation, Kip, and once again moving beyond my area of expertise. I have to leave critical commentary on your thoughts to someone better qualified, I am afraid.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Aule
(Tue Apr 22 21:50:51)
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Upon reading your post, I had one question nagging my mind: didn't Tolkien write of Middle Earth as a feigned history? With that knowledge, isn't it safe to say that M.E. would have developed like our world did? Magic would simply have to leave M.E. for that to be possible, because it doesn't exhist on our Earth. (At least not outside of religious belief, of which most is a different kind of magic, arguably if it exhists at all.)
My question would be more along the lines of, where in history would his world have merged with ours?
Gaby
"There's only one person in the whole world like you." 
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Very interesting thought. I looked at this not just as Middle-earth, however, but also other fantasy worlds, other authors...and the general trend.
I do not know at what point the beginning of the Fourth Age (making an assumption here...) would merge with our own history, but...
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Has that question I posed been discussed before? I don't know...
Gaby
"There's only one person in the whole world like you."
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To my knowledge, I have not seen those thoughts on this thread elsewhere, but I am trying to catch up on about 20 emails, so...who knows...either way, you were first. I do not know the answer to your question, however. I was also considering this simply in the fantastic context, and not as it would merge wtih our world, but that is a valid line of questioning upon which I may find time to dwell...depending largely on the effectiveness of the applicable medication.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Hi TBV, I'm joining in your thread a little late! but your questions. bring to my mind a quote by Einstein.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited; Imagination encircles the world.
For one of the Definitive values of magic is a mysterious quality of enchantment which shares similarities within the mind eye of a Creator or God like element. On the other hand you have Imagination and creativity as variables which ultimately equates to innnovation. Which man displays, this is a most interesting dichotomy.
If I'm following the train of thought which others have mentioned in consideration of the absence of magic and the possible rise of innovation.
Perhaps Tolkien is also making a comment on stagnation of the soul when all that is left is rational and imaginative thought.
Given the departure of magic from M-e, will that necessitate the birth of the inventive process, as people start to look for better ways of doing things, now that there is no magic left or will society "stagnate" and just continue as it has without change?
Social stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of the impulse to ask questions. I believe that change will result and that the innovation required will happen during this time of drastic change on ME. For it could be said that; It is the learners who inherit the future.i.e. Men. The learned "The Elves" which have left, would probably find themselves less equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.
In conclusion the problem of the absence of magic in ME may result in Spiritual stagnation when man's environment becomes unpredictable or when his inner life is made wholly predictable. Maybe it is this confusion within us, about the discontinuity of magic and innovation that Tolkien is addressing!
boy! did I ramble TBV....... I hope there's something in there to dig threw.
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I liked your response very much Paul!
Social stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of the impulse to ask questions.
Can I include that in my quote books? I want to remember that one. Sometimes I even drive myself nuts with all the questions I come up with, let alone the people around me. I'll have to remember it's actually a good thing.
Don't just be good- be good for something.
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sure! ywrose,
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Thank you for joining. BTW...Rambling is good. That is where some of my better thoughts come from.
Your quote reminds me of another, somewhat off topic, by either Groucho Marx or Mark Twain (what a combination THEY would have been...).
Knowledge is finite. Ignorance has no such limitations.
I may not have it exact...but the sentiment is there.
Does imagination equate to rational thought?
Social stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of the impulse to ask questions.
Great thought. To me, asking questions has always been the key to knowledge. People can pour information at me, but if I do not ask the necessary questions to result in comprehension, that knowledge is useles.
How about another thread...*evil laugh*..."Does the peace of a stable environment facilitate spiritual growth, whlie the unsettled nature of an unstable environment stunts spiritual growth and inspires "worldy" growth...ie innovation and experimentation?
I've gotta get better and get off these meds!
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Hi TBV,
How about another thread...*evil laugh*..."Does the peace of a stable environment facilitate spiritual growth, whlie the unsettled nature of an unstable environment stunts spiritual growth and inspires "worldy" growth...ie innovation and experimentation?
Actually I'm thinking about a Gnosis theme and Tolkien that is a hybrid thought of the Simarils thread that Wajz suggested. But I really like your idea. And will make a mental note of it.
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Should I give this thread a little time to run down, and then run the other thought, to really give people something to think about?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Oooo, Oooo, yes! Let's go there!!! I want to hear this!
Don't just be good- be good for something.
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Should I wait a few days...or just throw it out there tonight?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Well, since you are asking- I am on emergency tomorrow night so Friday would be really good for me. Really, whenever is good but I think a little more time on this one. We've got to spread out these deep thoughts a little you know.
Don't just be good- be good for something.
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Aule
(Wed Apr 23 22:44:08)
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Very well said!
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This has been a great thread to read, thanks bigV! I cannot resist adding my tuppence worth:
Most fantasy novels seem to follow Tolkien's precedent of setting their stories in a pre-medieval world. (Perhaps they want to avoid being branded as Sci-fi?) Few have the same huge timescale as middle earth though!
I think the key to the lack of technological development in middle earth through the ages of The Silmarillion and LOTR lies in the nature of the elves’ lives.
For the First and Second Ages of middle earth, the elves were the “dominant” race. But although they existed on middle earth for millennia, they are an immortal people. There cannot be that many generations of elves, even over thousands of years. So, they arrive in middle earth, fully formed and quickly skilful. Most of their greatest work is done in the early years of their existence. What we are seeing, in elvish terms, is basically one generation of people – there are no new generations to improve or innovate upon what has gone before. Their concept of time is different from that of a mortal, and as they continue to exist in ME, their power wanes; but they were always more interested in the creation of beauty rather than technology. Their magic is more to do with a harmony with the earth than with any obvious other-worldly powers.
The dwarves, on the other hand, are a very industrious race. Think of the technological engineering skill that would have gone into building a place like Moria. But, again, the dwarves are in decline by the end of the Third Age.
So it is left to men to pick up the gauntlet of technological advance in ME. But we actually know very little about them. How do they grow crops? Are there any great mathematicians or astronomers? Who are the philosophers, engineers, architects, teachers? My point is, in middle earth, (apart from weaponry) we do not know what the state of technology is. I think this is mainly because Tolkien was not technologically minded in any way (he never even owned a washing machine); and his area of expertise was pre-medieval mythology. He was just writing about what he knew.
But the point I'm trying to make is: it may not necessarily be the deparure of magic that instigates technology. It may just be the different attitudes and lifespans of the dominant peoples that drives innovation.
Just one final thought:
As others have already pointed out, in the real world, civilisations have also existed for thousands of years; in that time, technologies have come and gone. Nobody today, in our “technologically advanced” world, knows exactly how Stonehenge or the pyramids were constructed, for example.
Not all those who wander are lost
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Great post.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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At last, a few minutes to myself to indulge in the boards!
This is a terrific thread, and I've really enjoyed reading everyone's contributions. What I'm thinking is that the Elves and the Humans both can access the same elemental forces of Arda, but in different ways. When you think about it, Elves and Humans tend to create the same sorts of things, but they power them differently. Dwellings, fabrics, food, boats, jewelry, books, paintings, weapons- all are used by Elf and Man alike.
Humans manipulate the world in a very physical manner because they lack the inner ability to move matter in the connected, spiritual way of the Elves. Think of the Elves as 'tranformers' who take in the power of Arda and through their own being can create or manipulate things. Humans lack this internal transformative power, and must work with their hands to make what Elves make with their spirits. The Human transformative power is physical, and that drives them to devise ever more inventive and effective ways of working Arda's resources. It's harder for Humans to make things.
Perhaps what appears to be stagnation is simply ease of effort. The Elves seem to live easily, perhaps because they don't have to have as much to survive, their Elvish natures providing for them in ways Human bodies can't. So, their physical needs are easier to meet, requiring less effort, and allowing for more free time between tasks. Perhaps this is the way of a long-lived race, spacing out creative activity. If we added up all the accomplishments of a long Elf-life and a long Human-life, would they seem equivalent? But of course, as Humans we would have no way to compare, for we would see only the effort of the Elves within our short lifetime. If we can't detect the motion, can we say truly it's not there?
Just a few random thoughts...
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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This post has been up less than 36 hours...
Perhaps what appears to be stagnation is simply ease of effort. The Elves seem to live easily, perhaps because they don't have to have as much to survive, their Elvish natures providing for them in ways Human bodies can't. So, their physical needs are easier to meet, requiring less effort, and allowing for more free time between tasks. Perhaps this is the way of a long-lived race, spacing out creative activity.
I can see the ease of effort for some things for the Elves, like providing for everyday living needs, etc. While it is true that the Elves really do not need to create or work at creating the way humans do...why have not humans developed more? Or is their lack of development due to constant war, and if so, why is their not more development of weaponry? One telling thing for me is the lack of a crossbow. They were not even developed by the Dwarves, who did a lot of fighting with armored orcs in close quarters, although I do not see Dwarven archers as being a huge part of their fighting force. Picture defending the Bridge of Khazad Dum with archers! The enemy can cross one at a time, and archers with crossbows firing from cover could hold that spot practically forever.
I do understand your point about not detecting motion. It is also a clever quote...I like it.
What do you think about other fantasy worlds? I have noted that in many of them, it seems that the technological level has been unchanged for recorded history. Is this just a tool or is it a reaction to the presence of "magic" in the world. For instance, take Robert Jordan. In that world, since the cataclysmic events marking the beginning of recorded history, development technologically has not changed, until in the course of the series, and those with "magical" power have actually lost knowledge, and not found it again. Would the "normal" people have exercised technological innovation were it not for the "magical" abilities of others?
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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I found this thread through the Good Posts link - cool idea (given how many threads are on this site)!
The stagnation thing is an excellent observation, evident both in ME and in most fanatasy environments. While it is true that the fading of magic ushers in the Fourth Age, the point at which human history begins to resemble our own, I don't think that one can make a case that it was magic that kept things static - at least not for humans.
One of the things that distinguishes Middle-Earth from other fantasy realms is that magic is a far more subdued power in it than in other works from this genre. For starters, one cannot not choose to be a wizard and train in these arts (Harry Potter and Dungeons and Dragons being a couple of counterexamples that spring to mind). Secondly, the magic that is used is of a subtle type and not very dynamic. Readers sense that Gandalf holds considerable power, yet he doesn't strike his enemies down with lightning, or hover out of danger, or teleport across the chasm. His power manifests itself in a more subtle fashion, making it impossible to really say what Gandalf can and cannot do. Yet we (and the characters) sense his power all the same. As mentioned above, Gandalf's powers are not learned through study, but are innate to his being; he is a Maia and not a Man.
A very telling example is when the Lorien Elves give their cloaks to the Fellowship. One of the hobbits (sorry, this is my memory, I'll do my best) asks if the cloaks are magic (with their ability to hide the wearer). Celeborn replies that though a hobbit may call them magic, they are simply made by the craftsmanship of the elves and not imbued with any supernatural power. What is magic to one race is technology (or craftsmanship, if you prefer) to another. How many of our modern appliances would strike a pre-industrial person as magical? Many things that are labeled "magical" are done so out of the ignorance of the observer - from their limited perspective such an item or event is only explained in these terms.
Certainly ME does actually contain magic, I will not try to persuade you otherwise. But for the typical Breelander, say, or Rohirrim (can that be singular?) their lives are little different from a person of equivalent station living in Europe in the Middle Ages. For this reason I do not think that the presence of magic kept mankind from advancing in science; most of them had no experience with it. I've seen some admirable explanations given within the context of the story, but I will go outside of it for my explanation. I think it is simply that Tolkien had a dim view of technology and science, and he created a world that he would have liked to live in. His description of hobbits having disdain for machinery more complicated than a mill surely applies to himself and I guess that he would have liked to see humanity remain at that level of technology indefinitely.
The elves, which are his prized creation, are masters of preventing change. Their primary focus is to maintain the world as it was in the Elder Days, though Tolkien does say that this is their weakness. While the knowledge accumulated in an immortal race would be formidable, the elves seemed to have peaked in their crafts early, and sought only to live in peace practicing their arts for millenia.
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Thank you for your thoughts.
To me, your most striking comment, was
The elves, which are his prized creation, are masters of preventing change. Their primary focus is to maintain the world as it was in the Elder Days
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I agree with much of what you said... I think you understand that what led me to this thread was Tolkien, and other "fantastic" worlds, with an element of magic, where thousands of years pass without technological innovation or change. I use the example of the crossbow...In 10,000 years, no one has invented a crossbow or a ballistae. Perhaps it is just a tool of the author to keep the "set" in a comfortable format. This was just some random musing, put in words, which I have been thrilled at the responses to, in terms of breadth not only of involvement, but also of perception, personal experience and perspective.
Thank you for adding yours.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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First of all - I think the fact that Middle-Earth was so free of change for so long is largely due to the power of the rings (which were created for that very purpose).
Secondly - magic is, more or less, an out-dated concept and belief in it was far more popular in early to medieval socities. The use of magic in any other kind of society, such as a modern urban society, probably wouldn't quite have the same ring of believability to it.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
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a vote from the practical camp.
This is a part of my original thought process...authors of fantasy seem to leave their characters in the same technological setting with little or no advancement, especially when magic appears as part of the story. It is also interesting to look at a wide range of fantasy authors and see similar patterns.
Somewhere, I read a series, I cannot remember which offhand, but as the influence of magic and the gods faded for some reason, inventiveness started, and at the end of the book someone was experimenting with a new plow...
Thank you for your thoughts.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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thank you
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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| by -
ywrose1
(Fri May 30 22:03:10)
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| UPDATED Fri May 30 22:05:20 |
I had forgotten this.
Are we going to tackle the idea that you and Paul brought up above about peaceful environments encouraging spiritual growth and chaotic environments creating more worldly growth? Or did I miss it?
I've got a long weekend ahead with sick patients. I need something else to think about people!!!!
Off to sleep while I can (already had two tonight),
the Oracle
Ah...I see the screw-up fairy has visited me again!
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I haven't done it.
Thank you for the reminder.
Maybe I will try in a couple of days...busy weekend.
Remind me.
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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A friendly bump from Sponsor #11593: Lady Éowyn
You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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