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Darth_Imrahil
(Thu Jul 10 22:13:29)
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 UPDATED Thu Jul 10 23:26:25 |
Inspired by certain conversations from-- Why are Lord of the Rings fans all left wing fanatics?
--Thanks Schogger13--
***There are some spoilers***
Now I’m going to make the biggest mistake of my life and mix religion with politics (Nasty, like a fool, I'm ignoring your mother's advice):
Catholic Influence on Warfare in Lord of the Rings
guesswhoisback: "its not like the book is anti war"
Wally: Umm... yes it is.
Darth Imrahil: Umm, I’m not so sure about that. Wally.
Wajz: But Empty... LOTR is as anti-war as it gets!
I respectfully submit, Wajz, that you have made a gross exaggeration
Definitions --
war ( P ) (wôr)
n.
A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
The period of such conflict.
The techniques and procedures of war; military science.
-- Dictionary.com
Anti -
Etymology: anti- from Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti; ant- from Middle English, from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti; anth- from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti
--Merriam-Webster
Anti-
1. opposed to; against
2. preventing
3. the opposite of
4. rival
5. unlike the conventional form
--Oxford English Dictionary
an·ti·war ( P )
adj.
Opposed to war or to a particular war: antiwar protests; an antiwar candidate.
Dictionary.com
Really, what I am looking at here is a compromise between two extremes. Anti-war (against war) and pro-war (favoring war). I think it is clear that LOTR is not pro-war. At no point does Tolkien glorify war nor do Tolkien’s heroes, generally speaking, wage war without careful consideration. Neither, during the course of Lord of the Rings, does Tolkien indicate that the story is anti-war; some of the heroes do wage war because they feel they have no other choice. If the story were anti-war, I believe they would have waged a passive resistance.
No, I like to think of it as more pro-peace. That may seem like splitting hairs but anti-war implies opposition to war; pro-peace implies that one favors peace. Anti-war rules out the use of war because it is anti-war. Pro-peace does not rule out the use of force, because, as Tolkien seems to realize, sometimes you must fight for peace. Consider the following quote:
"I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: At least your enemies were amongst them? Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men live in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: At least I spilled no blood?
-Tar-Meneldur --Book of Lost Tales
In that quote, Tolkien reveals a quandary that St. Augustine of Hippo addresses: What is preferable, a “just war” or an “unjust peace.” The fact that Aragorn, Gandalf and Theoden lead the free peoples to war rather than submit to Sauron’s “unjust peace” seems to answer that question. War, under extreme circumstances, is necessary.
The concept of Just War was first put forward by St. Augustine of Hippo 1600 years ago in his text, The City of God. Augustine wanted to address the issue of self-defense in a national context. Augustine states, We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.
Writer and theologian Fr. William Saunders explains:
At first hearing war seems antithetical to Christianity since the Fifth Commandment states, "Thou shalt not kill." However, the intent of the precept forbids the purposeful taking of human life. Each person has a duty to preserve his life, and therefore has a right to legitimate self defense. Although an act of self-defense may have a two-fold effect — the preservation of the person's life and the unfortunate taking of the aggressor's life — the first effect is intended while the second is not.
St. Augustine was clear on two issues -- to wage war one must have the proper authority The natural order, which is suited to the peace of moral things, requires that the authority and deliberation for undertaking war be under the control of a leader. Leadership is entrusted with the public good and, therefore, should be held to higher standard in the eyes of God because they are responsible for the good and protection of their populace. Leaders, are, in the end, responsible for war and must make the final decision whether the war fits the criteria of a just war; such wars must be waged openly and legally and on behalf of the people.
Secondly, Augustine believed for the need of proper cause; causes he did not consider "just" include ...The passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an unpacific and relentless spirit, the fever of revolt, the lust of power, and such like things, all these are rightly condemned in war. Also, Augustine stated: A just war is apt to be described as one that avenges wrongs, when a nation or state has to be punished, for defusing to make amends for the wrongs inflected by its subjects, or to reborn what it has seized unjustly.
St. Thomas Aquinas, during the 13th century, expanded on these. To proper cause, Aquinas added It is necessary that the belligerents should have a rightful intention, so that they intend the advancement of good, or the avoidance of evil. The war must be fought with a good intention. Self-defense is generally considered a proper cause for war, though it still must fit the other criteria to be considered a just war. According to Catholic doctrine, the damage inflicted by the aggressor or the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave and certain for a response to be just.
Aquinas also added a third criteria -- just intent meaning to “to avenge wrongs or to restore what was unjustly seized.” Evil intentions such as conquest or genocide can turn a just war into an unjust war. The reestablishment of peace must always be the ultimate intent, and that reestablished peace must be preferable to that which would have existed had the war not been waged.
Later, these rules were further expanded on outside the realm of Catholicism, though still accepted by Catholicism. International law pioneer Hugo Grotius later expanded on the rules with three more criteria.
1.The danger faced by the nation is immediate (last resort). Last resort implies that all possible means to resolve the conflict peacefully have been exhausted.
2.The force used is necessary to adequately defend the nation's interests (probability of success). The idea here is that people should not throw away their lives in a lost cause. War should only be waged if there is a reasonable probability of success.
3.The use of force is proportionate to the threatened danger (proportionality). The harm the response to aggression causes should not exceed the aggression itself. This has also branched off into a subcategory know as “non-combatant immunity.” Those involved in conflict are obliged to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants.
All of these conditions for a Just War have been broken into two categories:
Jus ad bellum -- the moral justifications for war
and
Jus in bello -- the moral conduct of war
Jus ad bellum
1. Proper Authority
2. Proper Cause
3. Just Intent
4. Last Resort
5. Probability of Success
6. Proportionality (tactical proportionality)
Jus in bello
7. Due Proportion (mercy on the battlefield)
8. Non-combatant Immunity
Now the question: Is the War against Sauron a Just War?:
Jus ad bellum
1. Proper Authority: Aragorn--
So great a power and royalty was revealed in Aragorn, as he stood there alone above the ruined gates before the host of his enemies, that many of the wild men paused, and looked back over their shoulders to the valley, and some looked doubtfully at the sky
Tolkien went to great lengths to show that Aragorn was the “proper authority” as heir to the throne of Gondor.
When the black breath blows
and death’s shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!
Ioreth: King! Did you hear that! What did I say? ‘The hands of a healer,’ I said.
2. Proper Cause: I think that it is clear that the intent of Aragorn is to fight against the evil of Sauron for a greater peace. This was clearly a war of survival for the free peoples.
3.Just Intent: I think that, in hindsight, we can conclude that reestablishment of peace was Aragorn’s ultimate goal. He re-united Arnor and Gondor and granted self-governance to “the Hobbits of the Shire, the ‘wild men’ of Druadan Forest, the Ents at Isengard, Gimli’s Dwarves of the Glittering Caves, and the Elves from Greenwood with Legolas and Ithilien… Nurn was given to the slaves of Mordor.” (from The Atlas of Middle Earth). This is the kind of greater peace required for Just Intent.
4. Last Resort: Sauron had reached a point of power where he could have conquered the free peoples without possession of the ring. He brought the war to them and their only choice was to fight or submit to death or enslavement.
5. Probablility of Success: The chance for success existed as long as the ring bearer continued on his quest. In hindsight, we can say that that there must have been a chance of success since success was achieved.
6. Proportionality --
(numbers from The Atlas of Middle Earth)
The Battle of the Hornburg:
Forces Defending (est.) -- 3800 (not including Huorns)
Saruman’s Forces -- 10,000 or more
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:
Forces Defending (est.) -- 11,250
Forces of Mordor and Allies -- minimum 45,000
The Battle of the Morannon:
Captains of the West -- 6000 (1000 left at the cross-roads)
Forces of Mordor -- “forces ten times, and more than ten times their match”
These numbers show that the free people never exceeded the aggression of the enemy.
I do wonder, though, if the destruction of the ring exceeds proportionality. I do not think so, but I still wonder.
Jus in bello
7.Due Proportion Aragorn did make peace with the Haradrim and the Easterlings following the war. As with Proportionality, the difficult odds that forces of the West faced makes this point almost moot in that they were never in a position to apply this rule until the ring was destroyed.
8. Non-combatant Immunity: I remember no reference of non-combatants in Sauron’s forces, though I am not sure about Aragorn and the Shadow Host’s defeat of the Corsairs. I am under the impression that any non-combatants simply fled those forces.
Based on these conclusions, it seems like the forces of the West waged a “Just War”. I believe that Tolkien was far too pragmatic to rule out war completely, but was far to horrified by his experiences in World War I to accept war under any but the most desperate circumstances and those circumstances would be qualified by Just War Theory. Just War is neither anti-war nor pro-war. It is pro-peace, a compromise accepting that war is necessary in extreme instances in order to secure peace. That is how I see the War of the Ring.
A few other situations that might be interesting to put to the “Just War” test is the involvement of the Ents and the Scouring of the Shire. 
we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger -- Treebeard
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sinaes
(Fri Jul 11 00:53:40)
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Good post Darth.
But, I'll respectfully decline to get anymore involved in this discussion than that ;)
I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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mowen
(Fri Jul 11 02:32:12)
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I would simply say that its as plain as day that LOTR is not pro war or anti war in the sense that those words are often used (i.e. dove/hawk).
The obvious message from LOTR is that violence is bad and war is bad but sometimes it is necessary to stand up, dust off your sword and fight not just for your own freedom but the freedom of all. Perhaps the closest instance of that in real life is World War II ( I am not saying LOTR is an allegory in that regard just that WWII is the closest example I can think of that has similar themes - but even WWII demonstrated grave failings on the part of the Allies ).
Both sides of the camp can use the above credo to support their arguments. When seeking to apply these principles to real life situations (such as Iraq) its really nothing more than an argument as to whether the war is justified in one person's mind. That's why any attempt to co-opt poor Mr Tolkien onto one side or another is utterly futile and pointless.
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 Quite a post Darth. I agree with Mowen and with a lot of what you were saying. The people of ME, or rather those not on Sauron and Saruman's side, did not want war. Gandalf tried to reason with Saruman before the war began, Theoden wished to do everything possible to protect his people and avoid a battle and others tried to do whatever possible to avoid a full-scale war. But this was a time when peace was impossible. It was either fight or lay down and accept the horrible future Sauron had in store for ME.
I would like to step out of my heart and go walking beneath the enormous sky.
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Interesting and thought-provoking post, Darth... imagine that such a gem could be delved from the dungheap that is known as 'Empty's leftist thread'...
Incidentally, I forgive you for dragging my quote out of context!
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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That's a long post! I hope you're not at work, you should be sacked!
"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."- Charles Chaplin
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I finally do another on-topic serious post in an attempt to be a productive citizen of the boards, and the best I can get from Lian is a:
That's a long post! I hope you're not at work, you should be sacked!
j/k
I'm always frank and earnest with women. In New York, I'm Frank, and Chicago, I'm Ernest. 
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This is an excellent post, Darth and one which I thoroughly enjoyed reading, not only because of the interesting interpretation, but also for the sake of the scholarship and research that went into its authorship. This is just a fine piece of writing.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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bububu
(Sat Jul 12 00:00:47)
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intersting...if not a bit too long....
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Very good topic and a wonderfully thought out post, Darth.  Not sure of what else I could possibly add though!
Gaby
"There's only one person in the whole world like you." 
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CTS-1
(Sat Jul 12 06:55:16)
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Nicely done.
Look- he's trying to think!
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Darth,
Well written and researched...
Judicious selection and use of secondary sources to back up your contentions
Tone calm and appropriate
A fine standard by which to start the semester.
A-
Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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This message has been deleted by the poster
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Well-said! I wish I could debate this and have a prolonged discussion but I can't think of anything to add.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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sinaes
(Tue Aug 5 01:51:29)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless
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