The Elves’ gift and talent, which the Noldor made into a great art form, is the ability to not only appreciate beauty, but to capture it and hold it in unchanging perfection. They created exquisite kingdoms where time within stood still, nothing faded and living beauty lasted forever. They created their own Rings, whose special powers were those of preservation and fending off change. They worked to preserve ME in its pristine state, using their rings, for the sake of its glorious beauty and the love they felt for it.
I suppose that immortal beings might have this tendency, to want to keep things with them, lovely and immortal and Perfect, like the Elves themselves, but I wonder if there are drawbacks to living in a state of earthly Perfection, if there is a danger in becoming so enamored of the act of preservation of beauty that one becomes less able to deal with the realities of a changing world. Surely, if the Elves had their way with the world, ME would have remained a lovely, pristine place, in which the concept of change would be unknown. And when their Rings were no longer able to preserve ME unchanging, the Elves felt their own love fading, and sailed to the Blessed Realm. To me this suggests that the Elves were uniquely unsuited for the rapid pace of change in Middle-Earth and that this was an essential part of their nature, the inability to bear with change.
My question for the board is would you choose to live like an Elf in a place of unchanging perfection and preserved beauty if the price were an inability to tolerate the world outside, to be forever set apart from the rest of the world? Would that matter if you could live forever with unfading beauty, or would you feel it was too high a price for perfection?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Excellent post, athene!!
While reading your post, the first thing that came to my mind was Legolas' expression when they were getting out of Moria, it was something like, Wow!!!, something went tremendously wrong!!, and the tremendous impact of the tragedy on someone so used to perfect things, to endless beauty, to live forever.
Probably in the book, Legolas had to deal with dead and the loss of a friend before this incident, but from the movie i had the feeling that this was the first time that Legolas had to go through this kind of situation.
It helped to explain to myself why do elves die of sadness, because they're so used to perfection, to live forever, its like Frodo said: "nothing unespected ever happen", that when something terrible happens, it just destroys them.
My personal opinion, is that through the bad things, people grow, and that since you have a limited amount of time to live your life, you have to try to take advantage of every oportunity that come up, and that's worth the effort.
About the perfection, i think that i'm anything but perfect, so to live surrounded by perfection wouldnt seem so fun. After a while, i bet you get bored of living forever. Besides i heard somewhere that those who dont grow, that stay still, is like they were dead, i think that although change is a very scary thing sometimes, its what keep us alive.
Wow!!, that was LONG, sorry if its too boring 
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that those who dont grow, that stay still, is like they were dead...
That's a very interesting way to put it. I've been reading Tolkien's letters and he does talk about this subject a little bit- he uses the term embalming to describe what the Elves do in ME to preserve its beauty. One could get the impression that he doesn't quite approve of this aspect of the Elves.
I never thought of the Elves dying of sadness in this context before- that's a new idea to me. How fragile that makes them seem, like children who don't understand pain or cruelty, and only want things to be the way they were. Sometimes I wonder if the Elves, for all their wisdom, are far more childlike than Humans.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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"Fragile" is a great way to describe the elves. They're gentle, delicate, all the ethereal "aura"... it seems to me that the less fragile among the elves are those who were more exposed to other civilizations of middle earth, and those who faced suffering, war, or other problems that made them (again) grow, like Elrond, for example, he doesnt seem fragile at all.
Other thing that's related with the perfection, and the sadness, and the eternal life is the fact that after living, like, thousands of years, when you look back, any moment of true happiness, no matter how long it was, would seem like just an instant, a second for them. But since that sounds soooooo depresing, lets just pretend that they were very happy for very long periods of time!!!
And there was a point in which i agree with Samira: if you live surrounded by perfection, and you get used to it, how can you enjoy it?, or appreciate it?. For me, the good thing about perfection is that you dont take it for granted and that you have to work really hard to get it.
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I never thought of the Elves dying of sadness in this context before- that's a new idea to me. How fragile that makes them seem, like children who don't understand pain or cruelty, and only want things to be the way they were.
I read somewhere that elves have either extreme happiness or extreme sorrow. There is no 'in between', but this isn't really shown that much in the movies.
About the way they like to preserve everthing the way it is, I guess immortality does that to you in a way. I think that elves, even though being described as 'perfect', which is impossible, they are fairly unstable and cannot cope with change. That's why they all leave M.E isn't it?
What is perfect? To know everything? Never make mistakes? I find it to be a difficult word to define.
perfect: complete, not deficient, faultless,(oxford dictionary)
Go not to the Elves for counsel for they will say both yes and no.
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While I was replying to some other posters in this thread, I thought that since the Elves were created to be exactly as they are, and they are incapable of changing their natures, that they may find it difficult not to apply that state of being to other things- they might think that never-changing is the correct way to be, so they would always be striving to find that perfect moment in the mortal world and to preserve it forever. But, of course, as each Race has its unique gifts, Iluvatar also gave each Race its own unique faults. 
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Hi Athene,
It's an interesting question. For me, I'm forced to examine the concept of Perfection that this raises, and I'd certainly argue that perfection doesn't mean the same thing to all people. I mean, the elves concept of 'perfect' was this beautiful land where everyone is essentially happy and nothing ever changes. To us as humans, I'd expect that such a land sounds pretty dull. It'd be fun to visit - like Disneyland - but I sure wouldn't want to live there.
This question that you're setting is one I used to think about a lot in relation to the idea of heaven. The world of the elves sounds very similar. In the case of heaven, people sitting around playing harps all day didn't sound very exciting to me, or very enticing as a picture of an afterlife 'reward'. As I got older, the picture got more complicated, as it grew to reflect my personal ideas of what I'd want and expect in an afterlife.
Anyway, the thing is that Tolkien's elves are uniquely suited to the environment they inhabit. They like their unchanging world; it's their version of perfection. It's made for them, and not for others. It doesn't suit me, I couldn't stay there forever, and I don't think it would suit human beings generally unless we were exceptionally suited to such an environment ourselves (as you could argue is the case with someone like Aragorn).
As to what a perfect human world would look like - I think we'll all have our versions of that! And as to whether I would give up my perfect world in favour of change, I think my perfect world couldn't be perfect if it didn't have some change in it. How's that for either answering the question, or totally side-stepping it? You decide...
Cheers,
Sean :)
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You're so right that everyone has their own idea of perfection. Like you, I would find it very boring for things to stay the same all the time, but I could use a little more slow-time in my perfect world.
I'm developing a little train of thought here, between this post and the one above by Sicashu. When you mention that the Elves' world is made expressly for them, it made me think again of them as essentially child-like. Their world is like a nursery, made perfect and pleasant by loving parents.
I've always had an impression of the Elves that they are born with a desire to be good, like good children, uncorrupted by the wrongs of the world. Even when an Elf turns bad, it is from childlike motives- Feanor's selfishness over the Silmarils (his preciousss), or jealousy over a beautiful Elf-woman; they never seem to progress to true evil such as having the desire to dominate the world or committ genocide. They want to make it pretty, nice...
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Hi Athene,
That's very interesting, the idea that Elvish evil is from childlike motives, to possess and control. And that it springs from their love of beauty...
Eeek, I guess that's an indication of what the world would have looked like if Galadriel had taken the ring. And I guess that's essentially what she said she would do. Nice connection.
Thanks for the insight,
Sean :)
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I was thinking about that very thing while watching the documentaries about the production design, when the designers were talking about how the elves had achieved perfection over the years so everything should be very flawless and penultimate. I remember thinking "isn't that stagnant?" To me beauty involves change, and nothing that doesn't change and grow can be considered perfect--it's a paradigm that doesn't exist in reality.
That said, the elves themselves have that perfect, unchanging quality (although the recent revelation that they age is a (small) thorn in that theory). So, as sean molloy said above, perhaps it suited them. Then again, it separated them from the world. But if they're happy in their little world, so be it. If Valinor is some sort of heaven-like place in which perfection has been achieved and perfect beings exist there, perhaps it's a fit.
We have a conception of the perfect world in our society so that we, as fallible beings, have something to strive for. It would be an interesting satirical exercise to try to view a world where perfection had actually been attained. What would it be like? It seems to defy the theories of balance (The Time Machine is an interesting example--even though perfection had appeared to be attained, there was an equally ugly element to the world as well).
But assuming it could exist, as an elf, perhaps I would be happy in that world. It's isolationist, but I've always been sort of a loner anyway :) It's sad that they had to leave ME, but they had a "better" place to go, so the separation shouldn't be so hard. Anyway, to answer your question, as a human in today's society, I think we should constantly be striving to change and adapt. If there were truely a perfect world out there, and I were a perfect being who suited it, perhaps I could be happy.
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I like the way you put it:
To me beauty involves change, and nothing that doesn't change and grow can be considered perfect
The Elves received their perfect world as a gift from the Valar. They did not have to 'grow it', their life-work is to preserve ME in the image of that perfect world. I wonder if an Elf could even conceive of enjoying something that isn't perfect or on its way to perfection, to find satisfaction in just being for the moment. Sometimes, though, I think it would be nice to experience the absolute stillness that is present in perfection, just for a moment.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Sometimes, though, I think it would be nice to experience the absolute stillness that is present in perfection, just for a moment.
Absolutely, it would be an amazing feeling and experience. If only we could experience it once, without being stuck with it forever.
Ok, weird connection to the musical "Into the Woods", by Sondheim. There's a song in that about "moments", i.e. those magical moments like a kiss, the laugh of a child, etc. And there's a line: "Oh if life were only moments, even now and then a bad one. But if life were only moments, then you'd never know you had one." How can you experience perfection, or for that matter, hate it and wish for something else, if you don't know anything different? It would certainly be easier to appreciate it coming from an imperfect world. But it would also be harder to become fed up with perfection if it was your only way of life.
But maybe, if coming in from the outside, it's like a drug--if you experienced it once, it would make the real world seem unbearable. I wonder if you could go back, until it got stagnant.
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--if you experienced it once, it would make the real world seem unbearable. I wonder if you could go back
This is an interesting thought. I love "Into the Woods". Did you know that in the Unfinished Tales, there is a story where a mortal visitor to the Elves realm asks to be allowed to partake of their special liqueur, and is denied, because the Elves believe it would make his mortal life seem to be unbearable? Because he can never be an immortal, he would be filled for longing for what he cannot have- unchanging, unfading perfection.
Maybe it's best to long for things than to have a surfeit, if they will only increase your longing for what is not real to you, while distancing you from what is.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Did you know that in the Unfinished Tales, there is a story where a mortal visitor to the Elves realm asks to be allowed to partake of their special liqueur, and is denied, because the Elves believe it would make his mortal life seem to be unbearable? Because he can never be an immortal, he would be filled for longing for what he cannot have- unchanging, unfading perfection.
I did not know that, but it's very interesting. I haven't gotten to the supplemental works yet, but I plan to as soon as I get a chance.
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Seriously speaking, this is what would be the deciding factor. Would I be with my true love. I don't want to sound like a Arwen but that is the truth.
If I was married to a human and had human children I would not want to leave them.
If I was with (let's say) Legolas. Yes, I would stay in a world of perfection.
If I was human to begin with and not an Elf, probably not.
Where is a good Elf when you need one?
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I think that you and SkyBlueTraveller bring up a good point here, that going away to live in a perfect, unfading world, also means leaving things behind, possibly loved ones. I wonder if you could ever overcome the sense of loss and would that not mean that wherever you went would never seem quite perfect to you?
Well, yes, Legolas would make it all right, of course!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Man, could you imagine waking up everyday next to that beautiful piece of ...... 
Maybe I should say what I am thinking. Now that would be paradise.
Where is a good Elf when you need one?
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Well, I get as far as imagining it every day...
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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kiplingkat
(Sun Feb 23 19:37:29)
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 UPDATED Mon Feb 24 11:10:37 |
As a Historian, I recognize the need for change, the importance of growth and devlopment as we continue to better ourselves and our world. Personally, I don't think there is such a state as "perfection" in reality. No matter how "good" or "great" something is, it can always be added to, developed into something better or different. If we considered renaissance art to be be "perfect", the end all be all, then we would have never had the impressionists. And that's just art. Granted, technology is a difficult monster to control, especially considering the damage we are currently doing to the environment. But I don't think I would want to miss out on cars, planes, telephones, the internet  , printed books and films, space flight. And these are just part of a never ending progress. What does the future have in store?
We study the past to learn where we came from, how we got where we are, so that we may better decide the course of our future. And the future excites me. Sometimes it's very scary, but I would far rather move forward then stay in one place my whole life.
Besides the idea of actually living with the elves...makes me itchy.
He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
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Personally, I don't think there is such a state as "perfection" in reality. No matter how "good" or "great" something is, it can always be added to, developed into something better or different
Philosophically, I completely agree with you here. Since one can always conceive of a change, there can't be a state of perfection, only stasis. For example, if one can envision a perfect rose, one can always envision a rose with one more petal or a finer fragrence- there is no end to the changes one can make. I've always felt that concepts like truth and perfection can't reflect anything real, and are in basic conflict with the concept of the infinite.
I wonder though, if the Elves have a concept of perfection (for them), such that they know it when they see it, and know when to stop. Humans, of course, wouldn't have a built-in limit, and maybe that's a key difference between the two races.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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A good question! That depends. I haven't read Tolkien's other works so I don't know what the Blessed Land will look like, when elves depart from ME (assuming that it's because they can't adapt?). If it is a dreary place I'd rather stay in ME with its mortality. But if the Blessed Land is a paradise just like Lothlorien or Rivendell, then why not? Of course, it also depends on who I am with. If the price of perfection and immortality is to be forever alone, apart from my mortal friends or family, I think I'd rather be mortal and enjoy life for a period of time than enduring an eternal loneliness. I guess in that sense Legolas is lucky - at least when he sailed away to the undying land, he could bring Gimli his best friend along instead of leaving him behind :-)
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." 
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YOu have a wonderful experience ahead of you when, when you read Silmarilion. In the Blessed Realm, the beaches are strewn with jewels, the streets with dust of gold, everything is always new and bright, nothing ever fades or dies- your heart's desire is ever fulfilled...but alas, as you note, you can't have your best mortal friends, or ever return to Middle-Earth, so there is a price. You must give up everything else.
Do you remember the movie Cocoon, where people were allowed to leave the Earth and go live forever among the stars? And what they ultimately did?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I look forward to reading it even more now, since I just borrowed The Hobbit and Silmarillion from the public library Sunday! Yay! The more I think about it, the more I realized that I am a greedy person . When I was young I always imagined I were one of the characters in books or movies and can experience all different kinds of lives. I guess that has sth to do with my obsession with movies since I find an emotional outlet without paying the consequences of really "living" them. So I guess I want to be immortal so that I can experience "differences", but if immortality means no change at all, it will be a difficult choice. However, if I am forced to choose, I will choose to be with my loved ones, like Arwen choosed to be with Aragorn. 
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Really great question!
First off, would I choose a "perfect" world if it meant not changing. Yes I would but that is if I could truely trust that it was a perfect world. I would of course be very skeptical about someone promising that I could be in a perfect world. Because all I know is the striving between good and evil that we have. And no matter how perfect people seem they are still flawed and therefore leaves the likelihood of that perfect world impossible. As for life being boring without change or not being life, I see it a bit different. The reason that I long for change is because I want things to get better. In a perfect world there is no need for change because you are there. I don't think a perfect world means that you can't try new or different things; you just can't try the new and different things that are wrong or bad. In a perfect world you can't do things that harm yourself or others- all other options are open still. This gets back though to basic human nature and the wonderful previous discussions about evil and human nature. As humans are we truely happy if we don't have all options available?
That leads me to the elves. They (in my opinion) were "built" to want that perfect world (not really that desire to have all the "options" available). They weren't completely perfect in that as you said they acted childish but not nearly capable of that evil that men got to choose (unless corrupted into another species- the orc). They wanted that perfect world so much they were willing to die for it as they often did in battle. As I first started to answer this question I thought to myself how cruel of the Valar to put the elves into a world that was NOT perfect. The world of Middle Earth, while it may look pretty close to perfect to us right now, was not. There were great evils there and the Valar knew that. Then I realized they were told not to go so it wasn't a cruel joke after all . They chose to go and they were "doomed" to an eternity of trying to make that world that they had chosen into the perfect world that they so wanted. But those that didn't die from an act of the cruel world they lived in (a broken heart or in battle, two things in this world I could do without) grew tired of the trying. And they finally left. It is said that their time was done- and that is true. But the feeling I get when I read it is the sadness of leaving because they have to give up. The perfection can't be achieved. Only one stays and that was Arwen until her end at the hands of that imperfect, cruel world. (Some of you already know about how I feel about Arwen's character from other posts so I won't bore you here!) And this has gone way too long! Thanks for the wonderful post and some very interesting responses as well- WONDERFUL!!
Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional.
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Nice reply, ywrose1. Iluvator gave Humans strange gifts, one of which was to desire to control their own destiny. This makes me think that the Elves were lacking this drive, and that it wouldn't even occur to them to desire other options than what had been given them. It does seem cruel that they were allowed to rebel and return to ME, yet many Elves never even left ME, and lived there all along dealing with the ills and evils of that place, as well as loving its beauty. It makes you wonder if some were more adaptable to change, or if their lives were also saddened by the presence of change.
I like what you say about change making things better. Eowyn also remarked along similar lines that change can allow for things even more beautiful than what you have now. Yet, I do still yearn for moments to last longer, for change to come more slowly so that I can enjoy the beauty at hand.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Sorry- a little late on my reply tonight.
I got to read your reply this morning before work and I definitely agree with your desire for the changes to come more slowly at times. I have thought a lot about this today. I think that we are responsible sometimes for missing a lot of the little "perfections" that come our way every day. We are so busy looking for the next "great" thing we miss all of those wonderful little pleasures along the way. I know I'd be a lot happier if I dwelled a bit more on the things that make me smile, even little things, than if I dwelled so much on the bad. I like to complain and often times miss all that I have to be grateful for. I do truely long for EVERYTHING to be perfect, but in that, lose a lot of what is wonderful every day. No matter how hard I work I can't make everything perfect, but I sure could concentrate a lot more on enjoying what already is.
I answered earlier that I would choose perfection and I still say I would. But today I started to look at that answer in relation to my reality and how to affect that in my life, I guess. I'm beginning to think that maybe I should start gathering it in the degrees it is offered than expecting to be dropped it its midst so to speak. Sorry about the rambling here but for me being the control freak that I am, this is sort of a revelation!
Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional.
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Shakra
(Sun Feb 23 21:47:13)
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Perfection sounds utterly boring, my dear. It isn't so much the roller coaster ride that we all go through in life. If the world around you was perfect, there would be no way to develop individual characteristics. What sets each individual apart is the ups and downs of life and how they've dealt with them. Some are bitter from past experience, some withdraw, some learn to cope and change their life accordingly, and others develop a sense of humor about their plights.
If nobody had to cope with problems then I imagine that everybody would pretty much be clones. How dull and boring is that? Muffy and Biff aren't nearly as interesting as John and Jane.
Homer: God bless those pagans.
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I wouldn't mind, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind,either, cloning our boy Legolas!
But I see what you are saying about the way in which we develop as individuals. With nothing to react to, no challenges to overcome, no obstacles, there would be no victories, either.
But perhaps we could live a world that is a little closer to Perfection? One without certain ills and evils, where people had more opportunity to develop themselves in fulfillment of their own best interests, and were less controlled by others and by circumstances?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Shakra
(Mon Feb 24 12:52:34)
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I'm beginning to think that everybody's idea of perfection is not the same, though. Nobody seems to agree even if it's best to live in the mountains, by the shore or in the city.
If your intent means less war and less crime, then...yes...I would be happier with that kind of world. However, I also feel that a lot of people become bored when nothing is going on in their world and they alleviate that boredom through self-destructive tactics. Not all...just some.
A small example: Look at the amount of trolls we've all had to deal with. Why is that? Because these people have very little in their lives and feel it is necessary to go around and yank other people's chains for their amusement.
I know that I've done more than my share of crazy things, several of which could have gotten me killed. Maybe people feel the need to strike out and tip their balanced world every once in awhile. Self-destructive or not, maybe we feel really alive when we're pushing the envelope.
Homer: God bless those pagans.
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I wouldn't choose to live like an Elf. Change allows people and things to grow in their own unique way, which adds difference and variety to the world. Also, while allowing for change would risk marring M.E., it also risks beautifying it even further.
Beauty does not always fade. It can increase beyond imagination. A gardener can keep his flowers from dying to a certain extent; once he has reached that point, all his beloved flowers die. But then seeds can be spread from different places, and if he stays and maintains his garden, the seeds will sprout, and perhaps even more beautiful blooms will grow. Or perhaps the ugliest, most horrible weeds will germinate. It's a risk the gardener has to take if he stays. But if the gardener leaves the garden, he no longer has any control over what grows there, and the chances of an ugly crop of weeds growing in the garden increase because he isn't there to maintain the growth.
Besides, I'm Éowyn. If I were to denounce change, I'd be a hypocrite, as you know if you've read RoK.
 You are a daughter of kings. A shieldmaiden of Rohan.
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Beauty does not always fade. It can increase beyond imagination.
What a wonderful and original way to think about it. Beauty would not be an end in itself, but would be a process of growing ever more lovely. To stop that process at one point and say 'this is Beauty flawless' and to immortalize it would be to prevent all the possible Beauties from coming into being. I wonder if the Elves felt like your gardener, abandoning their beloved flowers to the possible ravages of Human weeds. Perhaps that was part of their grief, wanting to leave, and fearing what would happen when they did.
One of the things I love most about Eowyn is her ability to embrace change in her life in such a graceful manner. Not as a sudden, wrenching dislocation of her thinking, but as a natural, inwardly realized difference which has emerged from her own reflection about the events and circumstances of her life. In other words, she allowed herself to change, and accepted her new thoughts. Well, she's always been a favorite of mine, anyway.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I just started re-reading the Simarillion and one bit is coming back to me very strong in this post. Before Ea was created, and all the Ainur were before Iluvatar making their music, Melkor came to the realization that he had greater gifts than everyone else. With this realization he began to have his own thoughts about the music and desired to bring forth his new music. But because it wasn't a part of the theme which all the other Ainur knew, it caused a war of music to begin (makes me think of "Dueling Bangos" for some reason). After Iluvatar finally showed Melkor that he was the master, he said (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the book right in front of me):
"None of you can do anything that doesn't have its utmost source in me. If thou tries, whether in reverence or mockery, to do thy own will thou shalt only create things more wonderful and beautiful that had not been conceived before."
Of course, this is paraphrasing, but 2 things I got out of this. One, Iluvatar is both good and evil, by this statement. His thought brought Melkor into being, thus Melkor's thought were of like to his masters and was not capable of anything beyond the scope of Iluvatar. Secondly, Iluvatar saw that without bad things happening, good was impossible. The whole duality of the world was set before its creation. What is good without bad? How would a person, no matter what race, learn if there wasn't good effects and bad effects to a decision?
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BB-15
(Mon Feb 24 13:27:10)
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Hi Tar-Pharazon;
"Iluvatar is both good and evil, by this statement. His thought brought Melkor into being, thus Melkor's thought were of like to his masters and was not capable of anything beyond the scope of Iluvatar."
Another interpretation of the events between Iluvatar and Melkor is that Melkor by his own free will chose to be evil and so this was not the will of Illuvatar. Now in Melkor's creation there is some element of Illavtar/God's purpose and can be incorporated into Illavtar/God's plan but Melkor's turning to evil and his desire to create evil was a spontaneous act and not the will of Illavtar/God.
IMHO it boils down to whether we (or Melkor) have free will or whether every act is predetermined by God. This question has been debated since the days of the Bible and the Greek philosophers. Glad you brought it up.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I was wondering who would be the one to bring that up. And as much as I hate to bring it up, I thought it tied in with much of our world and Tolkien's. If God (I will use this for both the reference of the Biblical God and Tolkien's God, Iluvatar/Eru) created all, knows all, sees all, and set everything to a predestined path, then isn't God impartial? Does this mean God is a bad person? Not IMHO, because a God who is all-knowing/all-powerful is beyond judgement of right and wrong. Is beyond good and evil. God just is. I think that is one of the fundamental pieces of religion that really isn't thought of (or, at least, I haven't heard too many religious friends ponder this).
I often hear people ask me why I don't believe in God. They don't understand that my opinion is that if there is a God then he is neither good nor bad, he just is. He has planned everything out like dominos, knocked one over, and is watching it all fall over. I think that by doing what is right I will earn my place, not by simply believing in a God and praying to him.
OK, now I'm straying from the discussion at hand. I don't believe Melkor ever strayed from Iluvatar's will. Because the harder Melkor strove against Iluvatar, the more he proved to be Iluvatar's instrument. During the Vala's "preview" of Ea, and all that was to unfold, Iluvatar showed them all what was going to happen. He showed Ulmo ice and steam which Melkor created with heat and cold. He showed them all that was going to happen, up to a point. As to why he cut the "preview" short, I am unsure. Perhaps so the Vala would not lesson their efforts when the end approached. Perhaps the will of men made the future more unknown, even for Iluvatar. But, I don't believe that anything He created was beyond Him as the all-being from which everything was created for His pleasure.
Of course, this is my view, and exactly that. My view is tainted by my position in life, so others may see this differently. Also, I apologize for offending anyone by referencing God and Iluvatar as "He, Him, and His", as gender is unknown (if it is even applicable to God).
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I knew that good and evil would find their place in this discussion eventually. Actually, I tend to agree with you, Tar-Pharazon, in that I don't believe we can ascribe good or evil to God. To do so is to limit God, which is a contradiction if we think of God as being omniscent and omnipotent. You can't lay requirements on God- you can only accept him as he is. I think that God is truly beyond our judgement of good and evil, but by definition, all things in God's creation are good because they are of God. Evil is our own Human creation to explain certain things that seem to work against the unifying force of creation. I tend to think of God as an entity that encompasses all existence, and as such is a constant process or state of change, so of course it would be impossible for us to actually define God.
I need to get some sleep, but this is getting really interesting. For me, perfection and truth don't really have useful meanings, except in human terms, but there might be a state of being that is beyond our perceptions in which we could escape the illusions of "reality" and experience the state of God complete, the state of stillness that accompanies unchanging, final perfection of being. More later???
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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damianarlyn
(Mon Feb 24 19:45:25)
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It is possible for something or someone to quite simply BE and still be GOOD. God can be self-existent and still have a nature and a personality.
I am one of those few who doesn't think that God is dispassionate and unchanging. Those ideas come mostly from ancient Greek philosophy (the "unmoved mover" and so forth). They demonstrate an assumption most of us have deep down which says that change either takes one closer to or further away from perfection. I don't think that this is necessarily the case. Something can change without getting better or worse. It can just become different.
Personally, I don't have a problem limiting God. We limit God all the time with our language and yet we say that we oughtn't. We are afraid to ascribe any characteristics to God because we are binding God somehow. I actually think that God is already bound by certain things including His own nature. Something else would be logic. Can God be something that He is not? I would say No, he can't. That's absurd.
I think that God is omniscient and omnipotent with regard to us (the creation) but not with regard to Himself. That doesn't mean, of course, that God can't change or grow or be passionate about something.
"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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BB-15
(Mon Feb 24 20:58:19)
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Hi damianarlyn; Of course there are many conceptions of God. And I can agree at one moment or another with many of the arguments presented here.
"Personally, I don't have a problem limiting God. We limit God all the time with our language and yet we say that we oughtn't."
Now a book that has influenced me on this topic is "When Bad Things Happen to Good People". The premise of this book is that God is not all powerful. How can that be? One idea is that God has self imposed limits. Why? Because it allows free will even for God. In this view God is not a a predetermined machine. To say that God must know everything is to place a limit on God, not allowing God to CHOOSE to not know everything.
"I think that God is omniscient and omnipotent with regard to us (the creation) but not with regard to Himself."
This is as subtle as a theologian! Another forum where I have read some discussions like this are on beliefnet.com.
IMHO this is close to the Catholic conception which Tolkien believed. I do not think that Tolkien or that his concept of Illuvatar in the Silmarillion has Illuvatar creating evil. What I see is Illuvatar allowing evil to emerge and then bending evil to Illuvatar's plans.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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damianarlyn
(Mon Feb 24 21:11:59)
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I don't particularly want to get into the discussion of whether or not God created evil because there are three other threads (the "Nature of Evil" threads) that have already been devoted to this topic and nothing was ultimtely ever resolved. It's a subject that just seems to stir up bad feelings among people. If you want to find out what I do believe concerning God and evil you can either check those threads or PM me and I'll tell you.
I will say, however, that I have read "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" and I thought it was an interesting book. I didn't agree with most of it though because I think it asked the wrong questions.
"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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First off, I want to thank everyone for not turning this into a heated theological debate. Its tough not to due to the passion in which some people believe in their given faith.
I'm not a theologist, so my knowledge of biblical (or any religious reference, for that matter) is quite limitted. I only know bits a pieces of some references with a general overview. So I'm going to have to drop out of the discussion on whether God is capable of evil, whether his is omnipotent, and/or if he created evil. Also, I think its good that more views are being taken of religion today. It definitely adds more intrigue to religion than "Thou shalt believe what thy Good Book sayeth or thou shalt parish in flames and burn for all eternity".
As far as Eru goes, though, I re-read that little part that I was talking about before. Although I forgot my book again, the quote states that nobody can do anything to spite Eru. And those that try will only prove to be Eru's instrument in creating things more beautiful than hadn't been conceived before. He also mentions something at the beginning of the preview of Ea to Melkor. He says something to the effect of "now, come, see the effects of thy secret desires in thy heart". Eru seems to already know about Melkor's brewing evilness and even seems to add fuel to the fire by showing him a place where he could reign. I fully believe that Eru created "evil". Because only with evil could the most beautiful things be brought forth. Darkness was made evil by Melkor, therefore the Vala brought forth light in the form of stars, the lamps that were destroyed, the Trees that gave us the fruits of the sun and the moon, and caused the Simarils to be created. The sorrow from the loss due to the evil brought forth created deeds of renown and even greater striving. Gondolin would not have existed, Lothlorien, Minas Tirith, Ithilien, and many other places that were not only strongholds, but places of learning and beauty. To me, Eru is above being defined in the terms good and evil. Its simply Eru knew that evil would cause more beauty to be brought into the world than a world of stasis, a world without turmoil, a world without evil. I guess this is why I see our Biblical God in the same light. I don't think he is evil, or necessarily capable of evil, but that evil was created as a necessity for us to strive to overcome it and in doing so created things of beauty that none had conceived of before.
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BB-15
(Tue Feb 25 13:32:45)
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Hi - Tar-Pharazon; IMHO this discussion has not gotten too negative because it has centered on how concepts of God relate to Tolkien's myth. So, this is not about personal theology.
I like your reasoning about Illuvatar's relationship to the creation of evil involving Melkor. The thing about theological discussions is that a subtle change of a word or two and can change a basic premise, God did not create evil, and still be consistent with the parts of the Silmarillion you mentioned.
First what I believe Eru creates in the Silmarillion is free will. He gives that power to the Valar and to himself. And so Melkor is free to create the clash of Music. You said;
"Eru seems to already know about Melkor's brewing evilness and even seems to add fuel to the fire by showing him a place where he could reign."
Yes, Eru knows Melkor's plans because of Eru's power and Eru allows Melkor to proceed due to a second act done by Eru; He allows the Valar to exercise their free will even when it is done for evil. This IMHO does not mean that Eru approves of evil or created evil but Eru does allow evil to happen.
So, while I believe your conclusion that God created evil can be supported by the Silmarillion, the other concept that God only created the potential for evil is equally supported.
I've enjoyed the discussion, BB ;-)
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dang, BB, you and athene must be related. You two both come off so polite even on some of the touchiest topics. Its almost amazing the way you 2 can do that every time and I don't think I've even see either of you lose your temper.
Anyway, I thank you for your great insights and posts. I can't help but think of the movie Dogma in this discussion. "It is better to have ideas then beliefs. Ideas are easier to change. Beliefs are trickier. People die for their beliefs. Look at all the crap that gets carried out in J.C.s name!" Its not an exact quote, but what I like about it is I carry with me an idea of God and his realm. This discussion just added/changed my idea a little. Although my old idea is still in there, I have another direction to look at it from.
BTW, if you don't mind a good satire of the Christian religion (mainly Catholisism; sp?), Dogma is a great movie. If it offended anyone, I apologize for bringing it up. I know some points in it are somewhat contraversal and may not be suitable jokes for some. I have a rather broad sense of humor and take little offense in jokes.
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Oh, I've been known to don my horns and pointy tail now and then! 
I really liked Dogma- it wasn't offensive to me, it just looked at the practicalities of divinity in a new way. I loved God as a Woman, of course.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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damianarlyn
(Tue Feb 25 18:50:25)
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I am not a Catholic but I am a pretty serious protestant Christian and I simply loved Dogma. It's one of my favorite films. I think it is Kevin Smith's best movie (followed by Chasing Amy). I loved how it was so provocative and posed such important questions. I'm not sure I agreed completely with the "ideas" vs. "beliefs" argument, but it there was some truth in it. The movie as a whole was a great exploration into the nature of God, free will, evil, belief, religion, destiny, etc. A very compelling film.....
...Plus, it was really funny!
"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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BB-15
(Wed Feb 26 03:36:47)
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Hi Tar-Pharazon;
"You two both come off so polite even on some of the touchiest topics. "
Thank you; IMHO what allows the many civil discussions here is that this is an excellent Board. So, kudos all around! Compliments first to imdb for creating an excellent discussion Board structure. Thanks to athene and all of her helpers on this Board; Aule, Tubba, lke etc. who have worked very hard to keep the trolls at bay and encourage fun discussions. Last I'd like to compliment you Tar and damianarlyn for your insightful comments.
Peace, BB ;-)
PS. I haven't seen Dogma yet; I still am watching the LOTR EE DVDs over and over again! (As well as some new sci-fi DVDs that I just bought like Total Recall and Zardoz.)
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damianarlyn
(Wed Feb 26 17:09:21)
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"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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Like you, I'm delighted with the conversation, but I'm not surprised at all at how enlightening and civil it has been. I've seen people on this board talk about some very deep and divisive subjects in a very informative and articulate manner, and I think it's because there's a great love and respect here for ideas and those who share them. Well, this would be part of my definition of a perfect world-can we place this moment on hold?
To me, Eru is above being defined in the terms good and evil. Its simply Eru knew that evil would cause more beauty to be brought into the world than a world of stasis, a world without turmoil, a world without evil. I guess this is why I see our Biblical God in the same light. I don't think he is evil, or necessarily capable of evil, but that evil was created as a necessity for us to strive to overcome it and in doing so created things of beauty that none had conceived of before.
I sort of agree, but I don't Eru or God would want evil to come into being, because I think of God as very compassionate and loving of His children. But that He allowed free will meant that things would happen that are not in His heart and thought, because we need free will in order to flourish. He wouldn't design evil into the world, it happened as a function of change which is a function of free will, but He would act to counter-act its final effects. Well, there I go trying to figure out what God is all about...
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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There is a book out there that changed my view of God-hood quite a bit, its called "The Great Book of Amber" by Roger Zalazny (I think I may have spelt his name wrong). The book is actually the complete compelation of all the books of Amber. Anyway, around the 8 book, you find out that the 2 poles of existance have sentient power centers. These centers of power, one called the Pattern, the other the Logrus, are the creators of all life. Anyway, the more you learn about them, the more you learn that they in a reality beyond ours and the rules that we apply to life are not the same for them. They manipulate, deceive, and abuse if they have to and unless who they are doing this to is an important person, they throw them to the side. Of course, there are many differences between the Logrus and Pattern and God/Iluvatar, but there are some common themes. For instance, all seem to weild vast amounts of and are the originators of all creation. And, during a conversation in the book, the brother of the hero says (paraphrasing) "How can you be angry with the Logrus? It gave you power and in return used you to help itself. It may not seem right, but how can you judge a being like the Logrus? It is extremely powerful and old. What it values and we value are two completely different animals." It wasn't exactly like that, but it is a rough reitteration of the brother's information he gave to the hero. In that statement, it brought me to a few realizations.
1) I'm not immortal. I have no idea what values that I have right now that I would not have if I was immortal. What morals do I have that are based on the fact that I am mortal?
2) I'm not omnipotent. If I had endless power, would morals and values be a concern for me? As I grew up, I found that I had a dark side in me, and if I had the power to keep myself free from trouble, would my dark side take over? Would the morals and values that I have keep it in check? Would my compassion endure? Power is one of the ultimate movers of will in the world, what would happen if I had all the power I had ever wanted?
3) I'm not immortal and omnipotent. Even if the Ring in LotR wasn't evil, I think in the case of Man, it would become so anyway. With limitless power and not dying, what would you do? Would a death affect you? If you stole, would you feel bad? If I could do anything I wanted and had all eternity to do it, what wouldn't I do, and would I care what affect it had on others?
The more I thought about all that, the more I came to the conclusion, in my case at least, that I would lose my "humanity". What morals and values that I hold as good and true would be washed away over time if I was immortal and omnipotent. I think its human nature to keep probing and finding out what is and is not possible, and with unlimitted power, what isn't possible? I see power as the ultimate corruptor.
Now, applying this to a deity, I come around to similar conclusion. I see God/Iluvatar as powerful, all-knowing, and creators, but not having the values and the morals that we have set down as good. They may recognize them, and maybe even agree, but I think that they enjoy caos in that it is the true creator of inspiration and creativity. Do you think that the death of a good friend that lead a good life was unfair because s/he was shot by some pyschopathically disturbed individual? Maybe, but in the end you, or someone may do something in tribute to that death.
If you've seen "Time Machine", then you might remember this. In the future, after the moon fell apart and colided with earth, the scientist who built the machine finally got the answer to his question, 'why can't one change the past?'. The answer was quite simple. The reason why he couldn't change the past is because the event that he wanted to change was the same event that cause him to build the time machine in the first place. Therefore, he could not change the past without changing the future, in which case if he didn't build the time machine he wouldn't have been able to stop the event that caused him to build the time machine. That loss the scientist suffered may not have seemed fair, but through that death he created something that would never have been without out its death.
Getting back to the topic, though, that is my train of thought in the "whether God/Iluvatar is good, or just is". But I do like the idea behind free will, and a God/Iluvatar with self imposed limitations. It adds a new dimension for me to explore.
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BB-15
(Wed Feb 26 23:21:24)
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Hi again Tar-Pharazon; I have never read the Great Book of Amber but it sounds interesting.
The questions you ask;
What morals do I have that are based on the fact that I am mortal?
If I had endless power, would morals and values be a concern for me?
If I could do anything I wanted and had all eternity to do it, what wouldn't I do, and would I care what affect it had on others?
These issues are addressed somewhat in my post about the movie Zardoz which comes to a negative conclusion if human beings are given immortality and great power.
Certainly mortality puts a limit on the accumulation of power by any individual. Tolkien never gives immortality in the physical world to a human except in very rare situations. Overall I would agree that it is good that we are not immortal.
The Elves by contrast to us are more controlled in their capacity for evil. Feanor and his sons were an aberation. They are the only Elves who we could say sought great power by force. Other wise the Elves, even those who do evil things, are no power mad dictators. So, it is hard for us to speculate, what if we were immortal like Elves and what terrible problems this would lead to. Tolkien was well aware of this problem. The Elves are not us.
So, when we speculate about what it would be like to be Illuvatar IMHO we are moving into very strange territory. What is Illuvatar, a being, a force, a spirit?
"I see God/Iluvatar as powerful, all-knowing, and creators, but not having the values and the morals that we have set down as good. They may recognize them, and maybe even agree, but I think that they enjoy caos in that it is the true creator of inspiration and creativity."
I agree with this up to a point. However we may speculate about the values of God/Iluvatar, it is obviously true we live in ordered chaos. Tolkien recognized that too. But ultimately we do not know God/Iluvatar's point of view except that God has power. Most of God's thoughts are beyond our thoughts. We only know what we can through our limited intelligence. Our free will is obvious, for good or for bad. There are other basic things about the universe that seem to be true but this is only a tiny piece of all the knowledge of God.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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BB-15
(Tue Feb 25 13:14:20)
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| UPDATED Tue Feb 25 13:16:46 |
Hi - damianarlyn; I have enjoyed the subtley of your ideas on this subject. Thank you.
I have read the Nature of Evil threads and I thought they drifted too far afield from discussing Tolkien's conceptions or how different views of God relate to Tolkien's world. We do not need to take it further.
I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. BB ;-)
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Because it allows free will even for God
I'm glad to see this, BB-15! I don't think that we give enough thought to God's free will, to be a self-determining God with choice in how He conducts creation. It does make things a little difficult philosophically- yet another characteristic to account for. But I can see in this thread that even those of us who agree that God's free will is an important factor look at it from different points of view. For me it means that we can't really define God, that is expect Him to be good according to our definition, where others see that this is possible within certain limits because God has free will. AAAH! It's certainly wonderful to talk about this level of belief with people who hold such interesting ideas and express them with such clarity and subtly.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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BB-15
(Wed Feb 26 03:58:50)
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Hi athene;
"But I can see in this thread that even those of us who agree that God's free will is an important factor look at it from different points of view."
It's very personal, which I enjoy reading about very much, especially with the high level of acceptance here.
"For me it means that we can't really define God, that is expect Him to be good according to our definition, where others see that this is possible within certain limits because God has free will."
Yes, we can say that God/Illuvatar is good, but what does "good" mean? Tolkien tackles this beautifully doesn't he? In the chapter about the Music, Illvatar's purpose is very subtle as Tar-Pharazon has pointed out. It's brilliant writing IMHO; poetic, mythical, philosophical all at the same time.
The questions about Illuvatar could go on and on. We have guesses and explanations but can we really know why at certain moments Illuvatar pulls back and let things go and then at other times intervenes? Why does Illuvatar give the Valar so much leeway in dealing with Middle Earth? Specifically why don't the Valar consult with Illuvator more? Such as when Manwe let's Melkor go!
I wonder about the interplay of Illuvatar and good and evil. Illuvatar seems so detached. Yet, there seems to be a an unwritten Law, like the Ten Commandments which the Valar, Maiar and Elves understand and accept. So, what is the relationship between Illuvatar and this unwritten Law in the myth? These questions pop up in my mind a lot when I read Tolkien which seem very applicable to conceptualizing God.
Take care, BB ;-)
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One thought that always returns to me is this: God created us in his image. This does not mean we look like God, but that we are also creatures of spirit like God, that we partake of God's divine essense. Perhaps that is why the Valar, Maiar and Elves, and I would add those Humans who care to be still and listen to their inner voices, understand the unwritten Law- because it is the thought of the God of whom they are a part. Tolkien does raise some intriguing thoughts- I tend to not get through the books as quickly anymore because of this.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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BB-15
(Wed Feb 26 23:38:39)
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Hi again athene;
"Perhaps that is why the Valar, Maiar and Elves, and I would add those Humans who care to be still and listen to their inner voices, understand the unwritten Law- because it is the thought of the God of whom they are a part."
This leads to so many ideas in my mind;
* One concept from the Greeks (Logos) practiced in a similar way by New Thought churches is that God is thought. Buddhism promotes awareness through meditation of the eternal, of Karma.
How this could relate to Tolkien's own views is a question I am going to think about. Speaking of thinking about Tolkien.
"Tolkien does raise some intriguing thoughts- I tend to not get through the books as quickly anymore because of this."
I am recently rereading the LOTR after not looking at it for several years (as I explored the larger myth). I have such a deeper appreciation of LOTR now. I rarely can get past two pages before I put it down to think about what I've read. The poems now have much greater meaning. The references to the First or Second Ages usually bring me to a halt as I wonder about the character's place, feelings and relationship to the history.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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I think that God is omniscient and omnipotent with regard to us (the creation) but not with regard to Himself
This is a very interesting way of looking at it. While I also don't want to resurrect the Nature of Evil threads here, it's inevitable that if we are talking about trying to create the perfect world, we will have to talk about good and evil a little bit.
I am more Greek-like in my thinking, and definitely more aligned with Hegel's thinking than with conventional western thought about God. I do tend to think of creation as a process, and God as the conscious, aware, acting, summation of all creation, existing both as the process and as the totality of it. In the process state, I could agree with you, that from our involved point of view, He is O&O. But from the totality state, I'd have to say our perception doesn't apply- and that the terms good and evil lose meaning. Thinking like this is always soooo confusing! But I do think that it's possible to break out of the process state and experience the totality state- perhaps that is what Christ was trying to teach us- to align ourselves with Oneness not with manyness.
Anyway, we've all had much to say about this recently so I'll be quiet now.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Hi, Athene; I would have answered here a bit earlier, but I wanted to think about your post before saying anything. (I really liked what you're saying here, BTW! )
I think I could live as an Elf - I'm not that much fond of changes in my life either. However, I don't believe "my world" wouldn't change; changes are inevitable (laws of nature and such), either for the better or the worse. It would only take longer in my case...
YOU SHALL NOT PASS! 
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Hi, Beregond! I like what you're saying here- I would like to slow things down a bit, perhaps not to a stop, but to have longer to enjoy the things I love and savor them. Like petting the kitties, or watching the cardinals- moments that never seem long enough.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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That was the kind of thing I had in mind when I posted my previous reply - savoring precious moments!
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
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Hey Beregond,
Alvin Toffler wrote a book way back in the '70s called "Future Shock."
His premise was that as technological innovation increased, our lives would move faster and faster. Things that once took centuries would happen in decades, or even in years or months!
So I don't think elvish time is totally a bad thing. Someone has to stop and smell the roses.
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Hi, Ptero; I couldn't agree more with you on what you're saying!
BTW, this book seems worth reading. I think I'll check it out!
YOU SHALL NOT PASS!
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Athene, it is almost as if you ask: would you choose to live in Heaven in an unchanging state of bliss? As a mere mortal, I find the concept of Heaven and Hell quite impossible to grasp. As a child already I rejected the whole thing. The whole idea of unchanging everlasting bliss and perfection is just as remote from us as the idea of neverendig suffering and torture...
So, I, as a mere mortal, may be wrong in preferring living in the here and now, on Earth, trying to create Heaven here instead of waiting until the afterlife. Because really, would I still be able to appreciate beauty if there was nothing but beauty around me? I wonder... Would I enjoy the summer if it were eternal or would I take it for granted? Would I be able to see the beauty of winter if it was all I ever saw? I love the changeing of the seasons and I love each season for being exactly what it is. Enduring a drought makes me love the rains. Being drenched for weeks makes me love the sun. The good inherently comes with the bad. Together, they form perfection.
An example of what taking things for granted can lead to: I have a friend who lives in Venice, right in the heart of the city. To him, it's just another city. His perception of Venice does not differ from the way a Clevelander sees his city. And yet, for me as an outsider, Venice is so much more beautiful than Cleveland or any other city. I asked him if he wasn't sorry for no longer being able to be dazzled by his own city, and he told me he was, he was envious of the tourists who came to Venice and were swept off their feet..
Athene, if I were an Elf, I would be equally fascinated by humans for all their imperfections and their continuing struggles to improve themselves. Either that or I would be bored senseless!
Begone foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion!
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What? Cleveland isn't Heaven? Since when?
I think I understand what you're saying, WtW- where would the world be without the zest of anticipation? Without the change of view, the unexpected, the new? Perhaps we are only able to see it from the point of view of being Human, but perfection seems to me to be the on-going process of renewal- maybe we have become change-junkies. I wouldn't mind if the change process slowed down a bit.
I wonder if Elves take vacations?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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A very interesting post, athene.
Unchanging perfection is not something that I could live with. I love to admire things of great beauty, but for me, the greatest beauty is found in nature, and nature is a thing of constant change.
No work of art, however perfect, can match the transient beauty of a single flower, of the majesty of an oak tree with it's ever changing silhouette. We love these things because they are not constant; we appreciate their beauty all the more because we know that they will change, and grow.
Even the mountains themselves are in a state of change. Over time, the landscape evolves.
Is it paradoxical that the Elves also love nature, and yet are so resistant to change? Nature is the thing that teaches us that change is necessary. I'll have to think about that one.
To achieve "perfection", and then stop, is to stagnate and die. Perfection itself should not be a fixed idea - once it is reached, another higher state should present itself. Which is more perfect - the acorn, the green sapling, the young tree, the mature tree, the green leaf, the autumn leaf...? All of them and none of them. It is "perfection" in a state of flux.
I think it is human nature to embrace change. As you have said, once their world started to change, the Elves decided to leave ME and pursue their perfection in the Undying Lands. Leaving the humans to their imperfect, perfect world.
There are 10 types of people in this world.
1 who understands binary, and 1 who doesn't.
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the greatest beauty is found in nature, and nature is a thing of constant change...
Nature is the thing that teaches us that change is necessary.
Your saying this just brought an interesting thought to mind. The Elves did have the ability to control nature to some extent. For example, the mellyrn trees in Lothlorien, with their leaves of gold, and their annual cycle of blossoming and leaf-dropping, so exquisite and refined, a continual delight to the senses. The light in Lothlorien, very unique to that place...
I wonder if the Elves loved nature for itself, the great changing force in the world, or if they loved it as an object, to be made perfect and immortalized. As was mentioned above, the Elves were made to love and desire their perfect world- would they even be able to appreciate the soul of change at nature's heart?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I wonder if the Elves loved nature for itself, the great changing force in the world, or if they loved it as an object, to be made perfect and immortalized. As was mentioned above, the Elves were made to love and desire their perfect world- would they even be able to appreciate the soul of change at nature's heart?
That's very thought-provoking, athene!
It seems to me that the Elves love the beauty of growing things, but are unable to appreciate the fact that death is also a part of growth. The trees in Lothlorien are a perfect example - the autumn leaves do not die, but stay on the trees until spring, when they carpet the ground with gold. Another telling example is a remark made by Legolas when he and Gimli are walking through Minas Tirith - he wants to bring to the city that which "grows and is glad... birds that sing and trees that do not die."
Is the eventual, inevitable fact that everything in nature must die the source (or one of the sources) of the Elves great sadness? Do they leave ME because they no longer have sufficient power to keep their beloved woods in their state of percieved perfection?
Edit: OK, I've just re-read your original post, and that's exactly what you've already said!
There are 10 types of people in this world.
1 who understands binary, and 1 who doesn't.
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There is nothing wrong with a little summing up and restating or expanding of someone's idea. You seem to have an understanding of something the Elves lack- death as a part of the process of life. It seems as though to the Elves, death is the ultimately terrible and unthinkable thing, while we mourn our losses, but let them go into the stream of life. Legolas was well-prepared for the killing of many Orcs, perhaps because to him they were not truly living, but he was badly poised to deal with the death of those he cared for or knew as individuals. His paralyzing shock over Gandalf, his grieving puzzlement over Boromir, are indications that he had little knowledge of or thought of death.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Elentari_V
(Mon Feb 24 08:48:55)
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| UPDATED Mon Feb 24 08:50:16 |
Very thought-provoking question athene!
Put simply, no, I would not be able to find happiness in the Elvish interpretation of "perfection". I believe Sean Malloy hit upon the heart of the matter, perfection is in the eye of the beholder. In my perfect world I would have the time and finances to be a professional student. Not a desire for more educational degrees or diplomas, but the choice to study whatever I chose with like-minded peers for 3 or 4 months, then move on to whatever caught my fancy for the next semester. Since knowledge is one of my greatest desires, would that mean that Elvish perfection for me would be already knowing everything? Learning is change, and is much more enjoyable than storing facts in my brain. I also enjoy gardening but I'm not very good at it. Would Elvish perfection be simply maintaining the garden that Yavanna grew? I would never be given the satisfaction of planting and nurturing my own bulbs and plants. Somehow I don't think the flowers planted by someone else would smell as sweet to me as those I struggled with on my own.
Everyone that has posted on this thread has of course given the mortal view on perfection. Perhaps this is why Illuvater promised a seperate place for Men after dying. This was their gift because they possessed an inherent need for change, discovery, adventure, even strife to an extent. Elves were created to find complete contentment in wandering a wooded path and singing songs day after day. Yes, they experienced adventures and such but, as has been mentioned, they often found these discoveries too much to bear. Elves were given the Undying Lands because of their very need for unchanging perfection. Men were given another path because they never would have been happy in Aman. It would not seem like Heaven to Men.
I do agree with you and others who have wished for change to occur more slowly, to have more time for moments of "petting the kittens and watching the cardinals" as you said. Certainly I would love to stretch out these past two years with my daughter. Perhaps the Numenoreans were blessed with such long lives for that very purpose. If you knew you were going to live 300 years, you certainly wouldn't feel rushed to accomplish things. You could sit with your animals as long as you wished. Take an entire day to sit in a comfortable nook and watch the various birds nest and play. Blow bubbles and play hide-and-seek till twilight. It seems to me that Illuvater gave the Numenor the greater gift.
One of my favorite quotes is from Steel Magnolias,
"I'd rather have 30 minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." To me a world without change would be nothing special.
"Remember what John & Paul said"
"The Apostles?"
"No, The Beatles. All you need is love"
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I wonder if we don't have more control over our sense of time than we think. I mentioned below and will mention briefly here, that I think the Elves had the ability to see beyond the illusions of time, to the real beyond, and perhaps Humans can do that as well, at least to glimpse the unchanging. We are also of the stuff of Iluvatar, which is eternal, can we not get in touch with this unchanging part of creation that lives within us?
I think of your desire to slow down these years with your daughter, and wonder, if we are in better touch with the eternal stillness, perhaps we would make different choices in life, and in a sense, slow down those moments, by choosing to have more of them, or to stay in them longer. Perhaps the Elves could control the external world and make its beauty last, but we can do the same with our internal world. Just a stray thought.
Sometimes in a state of light meditation, I feel as though time has stopped and I'm in the moment forever. I don't think you need to be in that state for this to occur, though- why shouldn't it happen when you are focused on your daughter?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Well, I would like to reply to this with some seriousness, but since I am at home with a fever and a bad cough, I don't think I will have enough brain cells to do so. So I will just give you my first impression of your post, Athene:
As I read the post, I remembered a "Far Side" cartoon that I had seen quite awhile ago. It had this guy, with wings and a halo, sitting on a cloud, with nothing around him (The Far Side's version of heaven). He was thinking, "I wish I'd brought a magazine."
That pretty much sums up my feelings about wanting unchanging perfection.
Well, time to be off for another nap.
Willow
If we send our sons & daughters to fight our wars
Is there anything left home worth fighting for?
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That's terrific, Willow, and I thank you for dragging yourself out of bed to share it with us! Now, I hope that you'll feel much better- I had a terrible cold recently and found hot toddies really helped. Hot strong green tea, scotch and honey, with a float of lemon rind pierced with 3 cloves, and a cinnamon swizzle stick. Guaranteed to make you feel better.
Sigh! I think nasty colds are a part of our imperfect world I could live without.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I'm allergic to green tea. Can I just make it with scotch?
Willow
If we send our sons & daughters to fight our wars
Is there anything left home worth fighting for?
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I go light on the tea, anyway. Hot water works!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I seem to have a different definition of perfection than those who have posted here so far. It's not determined by something human senses can subjectively evaluate (e. g. beauty). Perfection (putting it in Middle Earth terms) is Eru's will. A perfect world is a world exactly as He wants it to be - change, adventure, roses, and all. It's this perfection that the Valar and elves try to recapture by making places in which Melkor's damage to Eru's original vision is erased. Unfortunately, it's a futile effort because Melkor's evil has pervaded everything. I think this is essentially what the elves mean by "the long defeat."
Elves are creatures of the original, perfect world Eru envisioned. Pain, suffering, grief, loss, death, boredom, etc. are products of Melkor's dischord, so elves have a very hard time dealing with them. Elven potential can't be fully met unless they're living in the place best suited to them - perfect Aman. Men, OTOH, are imperfect, and are specially equipped to thrive in an imperfect world. They are Eru's recalculation based on Melkor's interference. And men can't meet their full potential unless they're living in a place suited to them - imperfect Middle Earth.
When Eru takes another go at creating a perfect world, it seems that the elves, who were specifically designed for Arda as it should've been, must be destroyed along with Arda. But men will get a chance to experience the perfection they were denied because of Melkor's destructive interference. They will be made perfect and the new world will be perfectly created to suit them.
So, after all that, would I be happy in a perfect place? Certainly. But that's not where I, as a man, belong. Not yet.
BTW, the very best descriptions of heaven I've ever seen are in C. S. Lewis' books The Great Divorce and The Last Battle. Of course I haven't read The Silmarillion or RotK yet - maybe Tolkien does better, but I doubt it!
"Do you hear the call, Earth-maiden?" - "The Last Ship"
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I love those books by Lewis, especially The Last Battle. Somehow the phrase 'further in and higher up' has become a little mantra of mine, when I feel discouraged. It makes me feel that one is already on the slopes, and if one can only bear with life, one can keep progressing closer and closer. Of course, one has to elevate one's thoughts along the way.
Perhaps the reason why the Elves fail to establish perfection in ME is that they are not the executor's of Iluvatar's will, but its recipients, and by trying to inerpret his will, of course, they are not quite in their proper place, despite their good intentions. They are a part of his perfection, not its creators.
It's important to remember that the Elves originated in ME, and were discovered there by the Valar, and removed to what the Valar thought of as the perfect haven for their beloved Elves. Perhaps if the Valar and Melkor had not intervened with their own selfish interests, the Elves and Men would have found ME to be perfection for both races, indeed. But as that was not to happen, Iluvatar would need to allow for the Valar to 'rescue' his firstborn, too fragile in spirit to thrive in the chaos Ainur brought to Arda.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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A relative term I admit, but perfection doesn't sound that bad to me.
I think the elves had simply learned to live within the context of their natural world, and tried not to harm it. It wasn't perfect: there were still floods and fires and changing seasons and trespassing dwarves, etc. in their world, but these were minor changes that fit within the overall healthy ecosystem of Middle Earth.
Sauron and Saruman and many of the humans, on the other hand, desire power above all, and have no problem in murdering not only themselves, but all the healthy ecosystems and communities of Middle Earth to get it.
It's a self-destructive impulse powered by hubris. You can see it today in nuclear weapons, global warming, biological weapons and the massive innihilation of the world's intricate web of living systems.
So I think I would choose the elves' world, with its wisdom and humility, over the humans' impulse to destroy things on a global scale. The elves aren't living in perfection, they're simply living within context.
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Val, I knew I could count on you to speak up for the Elves and their lovely way of life! I like the way you put it, that they are living in the context of the world, rather than fighting and controlling it. Viewed that way makes it very appealing and attainable for even us Humans.
But really, when we talk about the perfect world of the Elves, we are talking about the one they left in Aman and are trying to create in ME. Do you think that trying to live within context the way the Elves do in ME is also a form of trying to control, by preventing change? Where do we make the distinction between controlling and letting be? And why are they so sad- is it because they cannot control how others live in ME and cannot prevent it's change for, in their eyes, the worse?
You make Elven perfection sound very attractive!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Okay, Athene, I have to confess that I actually know almost nothing about the elves other than what I've seen in P.J.'s films. I haven't even backtracked to read FotR yet.
So I wasn't aware they were trying to "freeze" ME into some kind of controlled environment. I truly thought they just hung out in the forests and built kind of comfortable, but cheesy-looking homes.
But you have very correctly zeroed in on the big question of my life: When do you fight for the things that you think are right and helpful to the world, and when do you "detach" and simply watch the cosmic flow of forces around you?
I notice that P.J.'s elves decided to join in the fight ...
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It's an interesting point, Val- and even though the Elves did join in the fight, they were fighting for the right to lose everything they loved, whether they defeated Sauron or not. Perhaps when you truly are in a no-win situation, that's when you fight hardest to preserve what you care for most, even it it's only for someone else to enjoy in their own fashion later on.
What do you mean "cheesy"- I'd love to live in one of the Elven flets up in the treetops in Lothlorien. Or perhaps in Rivendell around all those laughing waterfalls.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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True, but a "perfect" architect would never build in a steep valley that's so obviously a landslide zone.
But I'm with you on the waterfalls.
I think what the elves did in the movie represented the height of principle -- but were they fighting to defeat Sauron or to show their compassion for their human brothers? Which ever it is, it's my favorite part of the whole film.
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damianarlyn
(Mon Feb 24 19:08:12)
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| UPDATED Mon Feb 24 19:13:12 |
What's that line that Agent Smith has in The Matrix? "Originally the Matrix was a utopian society. We created a perfect world for your race but your minds would not accept it. You humans seem to define yourselves by your flaws." If that's really true then that is sad.
I'm with you Ptero-valley. I would also choose perfection...
...as long as it was TRULY was perfect and not the satirical picture of a perfect society that Thoms More wrote about in Utopia. A lot of fictional places claim to be and seem like they are but they in fact are not. The fact of the matter is that, given the nature of humans and of the universe in which we live, a truly perfect world could not exist in this reality. That, I believe, was the point of More's book. However, A truly flawless creation where we are always fullfilled (note I do not use the word "happy"), are never bored, are constantly changing (nor for the better or for the worse) and, this is probably most important, are truly good, kind, peaceful and loving people would be a wonderful place. It may in fact be "the best of all possible worlds" that Leibniz wrote about.
That's my picture of Heaven.
"The only way to have a happy ending is not to tell the rest of the story." -ORSON WELLES
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Ptero-valley
(Mon Feb 24 22:47:51)
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| UPDATED Mon Feb 24 22:52:22 |
Damian, the word "Utopia" has scared me ever since I read "Brave New World" many years ago!
I think I agree with your definition of perfection, about being fulfilled. The Buddhists believe perfection comes from "living in the moment in total awareness." And if you can do that, in a sense, you also become "immortal." The concepts of past, future and "mortality" no longer have any meaning when you're living in the "now."
And the more you're in this awareness, the more the world becomes a spiritual place filled with friendliness and compassion. So maybe Utopia really means just being awake to the world.
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It's a good dream!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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This reminds of the question about being immortal. While this question is different, there is a common tie. Elves are immortal, and therefore their perception of the world around them is bound to be different. How their perception is altered from a mortals is not something anyone but Earendil and Elwing could comment on (they are the only 2 that have experienced both sides). Add what is perfection? To me, perfection constantly changes because my desires, wants, moods, and enviroment are always changing thus changing what my ideal perfection would be. Also, perfection to me is chaotic, to a degree. Most perceive perfection as a stagnant, stasis form of reality where everything is the same day after day. For me, not being bored is a major part of perfection which means little to no stagnation is required.
OK, I'm straying from the point. I would love to be an elf, living in Lothlorien. Think about all that they have seen. Even if you only ventured out every hundred years, you could still see so many wonders. And its not as if nothing ever happened, or Lothlorien never changed. The land and place may have stayed, for the most part, the same. But the inhabitants were constantly growing, changing, exploring. Also, they were at war with Dol Guldor for many years after Sauron defeated in the Last Alliance.
I never saw the Elves as trying to create perfection. I saw them as more trying to capture what they loved and preserve it forever. Sound farmiliar? It should. Its why we have camera. Everyone tries to capture what they loved and hold it unstained and unchanged, but even the Vala were not wholey successful at doing this, how could the Elves? Everyone is set apart from the world in their own way. The Elves desire things to remain as they are, unchanging, as they are, but it is not in their power to make it so. Dwarves, well, they are a difficult race for me to fathom their interests, which I guess sets them apart in their own way. Hobbits voluntarily remove themselves from the world and are the most "Elf" like of all the other races, seemingly. And men, well men always want to have the best of every race and seek beyond their measure and power for what they want. Their desire is what sets them apart.
I guess, Athene, what I'm trying to say is that your question to me is not so much a question but a state of mind. If I was an Elf, I wouldn't be able to imagine the thoughts of a man because so many issues that are because that person is mortal are not of my concern. Time means so little to an immortal while a mortal's whole world is centered around time. Perception rules reality, and I'm mortal so my vision is tainted with a mortal's view.
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You raise a very good point, Tar-Pharazon. It's very hard to perceive the values of someone who is completely different from yourself. I imagine that to an immortal, holding things in an unstained and unfaded state might be somehow comforting. Just like we cherish photos of days long ago, and relish the past, except for them, it is not the past, but the past living in the present that they cherish.
I wonder if it's just that Elves, who are masters of illusion themselves, can somehow see past the illusion of temporality, to the real beyond, and understand that the essence of everything lives on always. While we Humans can only see the ephemera of today. One of my books on cats says that they live in the "eternal now", having a memory span of about 3 minutes. I wonder if cats are like Elves.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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I like to think that I am very empathetic, and, after getting to know someone, can generally know what is going on in their head. My wife is not surprised anymore when I tell her the answer to a question before she even asks or if I know something she did without her even telling me. Yet, I cannot imagine, at least not fully, what the mindset is of someone who is bound to continue on in the world forever. Even after the body dies, they continue on, maybe even to be reborn into the world.
I guess if I was an elf, and after all that they have been through, all that I have seen, and all the sorrow that had befallen, I would want to create a refuge of "perfection". Maybe its a place in my memory or maybe a place in my imagination, but its a place where all my sorrows could be mended over time. I think in the Aklabeth (sp?), the Elves sum the score up perfectly when they talk to the Numenorians about the differences between the two races (this is when the Numenorians begin to get tired of not being "deathless" or immortal). Paraphrasing, as usual, the evles said something to the effect of "We are bound to the earth, to continue on forever, remembering everything and dealing with the troubles of the world. Whereas Men are not, and after their alloted time are able to leave the world. So who should be jealous of who?". For us, humans, a few hundreds years of stagnant living seems like a lot of time to sit around a do nothing. But to an elf that has seen the downfall of a kingdom, many of his family and/or brethren killed, and much beauty destroyed or taken, that might seem like a good way to grieve. I would think anyone bound to an eternity wouldn't mind a few hundred years of idleness to reminiss, remember, and perhaps review their life so far. Also, a time of seeking council and pondering the next part of their life.
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that might seem like a good way to grieve
What an interesting way to put it. We all need downtime in our lives and refuge now and then, so of course, Elves would need it too. Perhaps it also takes them longer to work through their griefs- they do seem to heal of sorrow much more slowing and change of any kind is hard for them to deal with. And I would imagine that after a lifetime of dealing with change in ME, they would be a bit worn out and happy not to have to deal with any more drastic change ever again. There are times when I feel that way!
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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We've been considering some of these very issues in our Utopian Literature class. A Utopia is a perfect society in which everyone gets along, and no one lacks for anything. I've already decided that i wouldn't want to live there. When you take away pain, death, and the so-called "negative" emotions--fear, anger, rage, jealousy--you take away the ability to experience the opposite side of the spectrum. Could you even know what happiness was if you were never unhappy? Even the pope has said the reason there is pain in the world is so that there can be love. And if necessity is the mother of invention, people in a perfect world would stagnate (as i believe several people have mentioned).
Of course, if i had always lived in a perfect place surrounded by constant beauty, i would not feel the lack. it would be perfectly okay to let my mental functions take a leave of absence. i wouldn't need them.
Given a choice, i think i would ask for a deathbed reprieve. that way i would have tasted what mortality was like, but learned enough about life so i could go back and do it again, and make different choices. like one of those "Choose your own adventure" books--a poor choice can lead you into all sorts of trouble, but you enjoy it, because as soon as you die, you can go back to the beginning and do it all over again. Of course, even this would probably get dull after a while--but not as mindnumbing as pure perfection.
And look at this way--literature and drama are born out of conflict. If we all lived in constant perfection, we'd have no LOTR to obsess over:)
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.
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If we all lived in constant perfection, we'd have no LOTR to obsess over:)
Well, that cinches it for me. I'm on the side of chaos!
I think you're right that it is the stimulus of the negative emotions that allows us to develop and appreciate the positive ones. Without something to react to, there's nothing to feel. Would perfection imply a state of non-feeling, or might one be so immersed in a feeling of glorious appreciation that one has no other feelings?
I like your signature- do you always use it, or did you choose it because it's very relevant to your reply?
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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neither, actually--i'm rereading FOTR and just found that poem. It's so beautifully written, i had to include it somewhere.
Cold be hand and heart and bone, and cold be sleep under stone...
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BB-15
(Mon Feb 24 14:16:29)
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| UPDATED Wed Feb 26 04:15:25 |
Hi athene and everyone else; I just bought the film Zardoz on DVD and after seeing it twice, once with the director's comment, I believe it touches on the issues in your post.
"The Elves’ gift and talent, which the Noldor made into a great art form, is the ability to not only appreciate beauty, but to capture it and hold it in unchanging perfection. They created exquisite kingdoms where time within stood still, nothing faded and living beauty lasted forever."
I can quibble that the Elves' world was infected a bit by Melkor/Morgoth and so their actions and their kingdoms had a slight, sometimes fatal imperfection. But overall you are correct IMHO. Tolkien is offering a version of Heaven on Earth so to speak.
Rather than start with my opinions of whether I would choose to be an Elf, I'd like to first talk about Zardoz which IMHO tackles these issues head on and in a very pessimistic way. The conclusions of Zardoz, written by John Borman (Excallibur, Deliverence) are not my opinions. Also, the movie sometimes has a confusing style but it is interesting for me at least.
In Zardoz the world goes into a dark age (similar to the ones, Second Age, in Middle Earth. A small group of scientists and the wealthy create a small colony where the residents develop immortality, telepathy, genetic engineering and other very advanced technology.
The Problems of immortality according to Zardoz;
1. What to do with the starving millions?
At first the pathetic mortals huddle around the boarders of the immortal compound. They are ignored by the immortals. Later the immortals move their border so they do not need to see the starving. After a while only one immortal bothers to deal with the masses. He starts a campaign of mass killings to reduce the population. This is done by dropping off piles of guns and amunition to chosen fighters called exterminators. Later when the immortals need more food, the exterminators are told to force the mortals to become farmers and send the food to the immortals.
Examples in Tolkien's myth; This negative relationship is closest to that of the sons of Feanor (Silmarillion); the sons pretty much being filled with contempt for everyone except themselves.
2. If you can read everyone's mind, then how do you manage thought?
In Zardoz the thoughts of the immortals is tightly controlled. Unwanted thoughts whether hostile or sexual are punished by making the offender older. The ultimate punishment is senility. There is a group of permanent senile elderly including all the founders of the group.
In Tolkien it seems only certain Elves can read others minds such as Galadriel and so they avoid this thought control problem. Also, the most powerful Elves, Elrond and Galadriel stay out of each other's way founding their own kingdoms.
3. If you don't need children, then what happens to sex?
In Zardoz there is no more sex. The immortals who have no sexual desire cannot tolerate those who have sexual thoughts. So, thinking about sex is gone.
Tolkien; Sexuality for the Elves declines quickly (a couple of hundred years). After this only a few, such as the ones who choose to live with a mortal (Arwen) become sexual.
4. If you live forever, won't you get bored?
The vast majority of the immortals in Zardoz are bored. Many fall into a catatonic state (no movement) as they slip into their own dream world.
Tolkien; Over time the Elves seem to become apathetic themselves. But a solution for the Elves that remain in Middle Earth seems to be that eventually the Elves' bodies are consumed by their spirit and so in a way they slip into their own dream world.
The Zardoz solution;
All of the immortals chose to give up their mortality. Most choose to die immediately. A few decide to have childen and to give life to a younger generation.
Tolkien's Solution;
As I said Borman's pessimism in Zardoz is not my opinion. To me Tolkien has the Elves avoid every trap that Borman sees.
1. The Elves while usually separate from society continue to influence it in positive ways; helping the Wizards, the Numenor and others do positive things.
2. The Elves balance discipline without it becoming oppressive. It is a benefit of the long child rearing of their kin, and their strong belief system which includes individual freedom.
3. Sexual energy is refocused on other pursuits; artistic, political, philosophical. A mystical experience is cultivated that does not require basic pleasure.
4. Boredom is the Elves greatest challenge. But an added element that Tolkien introduces is Valinor (the West). The Elves can go there which is a version of the afterlife to essentially escape the physical world. This makes the benefit of death as an end to boredom pretty irrelevant.
This view of immortality is fairly enticing. Anyway, food for thought.
Have a good one, BB ;-)
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A remarkably beautiful post Athene, and I am running with this train of thought from a human perspective!
Would that matter if you could live forever with unfading beauty, or would you feel it was too high a price for perfection?
I would have to say "yes" it is to high a price to pay for perfection! because it sounds astonishingly lonesome, and a terrible burden. Unchanging perfection and preserved beauty countermine what evolves in nature, a mainstay of observation from a human perspective is that all things need to grow and have to be nurtured by a sense of balance. Beauty “peaks” has its cycles so to speak! it could be said that beauty and change go hand in hand. Change initiating a feeling of equilibrium resulting from a sense of true stability when presumed order and presumed disorder are balanced. A truly stable system expects the unexpected, is also prepared to be disrupted, and waits to be transformed.
True beauty is never idle from a human perspective and we need to be reminded of perpetual beauty or else we are stayed with the concept both intellectually and empirically. Which is a dichotomy when you think of Arwen’s plight.
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A truly stable system expects the unexpected, is also prepared to be disrupted, and waits to be transformed.
This is a beautiful, poetic thought, Paul! Change or difference is just a part of the process of being. Perhaps we need to re-think our use of these words, so that instead of thinking of them as implying major alteration of something, we use them to mean the proper state of being is to be transformed.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Excellent topic athene as ever , I think in answer to your question I would have to say both yes and no. You see the thing is as other people have said in the thread peoples ideas of perfection differ and an Elvish existence that you are describing sounds like something close to perfection but it could never really be perfection for me and by extension you could actually say it is not perfection at all, so if that was what was on offer I would have to say no. So why do I also say yes, well if you isolated the word perfection and said I was able to go to a truly perfect world, IMO that would mean a place where I could never be unhappy, never be able to feel the negative spectrum of emotions anger, hurt etc. In a truly perfect world you would not feel any unbearable sadness about leaving the rest of the world behind, for example lets say you have to leave the person you loved most in the world behind if you were going into a perfect world one of two things would happen a) you wouldn’t have to leave them behind in the first place as that would cause you unbearable pain which if it truly is a perfect world could not happen or b) your emotions and your reactions to them would be changed beyond all recognition when you enter the perfect world so that you would be able to make that break without suffering the emotions of loss and sorrow that would inevitably be there. So like I say if it truly were a perfect world I would say yes, but now that I think about it I would probably also say yes but perhaps not yet, the reason being I’ve always liked that saying “May all your dreams come true but one” I feel that were I able to fulfil as many of my dreams as possible indeed all of them then you would be ready to go. I suppose what I am saying is I would like to have my cake and eat it. Although you could speculate that if you were going to be in a perfect world you would not have any unfinished business to attend to so you would either be able to do it there o will have already done it before you get there...... OK now I’m beginning to confuse myself so I think I’ll stop now .
Anyway let me know what you think you can maybe understand what I am trying to say better than I can.
"War doesn't ennoble men,
It makes them into dogs,
It poisons the soul."
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Roy72
(Tue Feb 25 14:01:46)
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The only immutable and inevitable force in the universe is change and evolution. To become immutable and unchangable is another way of saying inflexible and unable to adapt. To become so is to invite extinction. The Elves cheat this by going off to Valinor leaving men to inherit middle earth, whenin comes down to it darwinism will always win.
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You are definitely part of a very strong voice in favor of change and growth as the right way to live, at least for us humans. I wouldn't want to create the impression that there is something wrong with the Elves being as they are, they are the way they were made to be, and are unable to change themselves, and I see some irony in that since we are discussing their penchant for creating things that also do not change. Perhaps this drive to statis is so innate in them, that they cannot truly conceive of taking pleasure in a world that is not perfect and which changes every second.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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Something very interesting is contained in your post, and you seem to be onto a trend here. Several people have mentioned the transition to a perfect world as posing some real problems for them, not the perfect world itself, but what you might have to leave behind in order to get there, a loved one most especially. To have to leave someone you love behind would negate the perfection of the place where you go. So it's not just the perfect world that's under question, but our own getting there, and not even whether we deserve to get there, but whether we can have what we love most there- and what if it doesn't deserve to come along?
For the Elves, this wouldn't be such an issue, because they would take their loved ones with them back to Aman (or in Elrond's case-not, and suffer the grief of parting- one hopes for healing for him) or hope to meet their loved ones who have already gone there, or those who have died might be reembodied and rejoin their families- when you know your loved ones live forever, are always invited to the Blissful Lands, and can be reborn into your life, there is little to lose in sailing to Aman, except your fading attachment to the mortal world. But I can't imagine a Human ever being assured of going to Heaven without some pang of regret for those who aren't going there.
"I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew..."
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But I can't imagine a Human ever being assured of going to Heaven without some pang of regret for those who aren't going there.
Absolutely that has always been something I wondered about, if we are talking from a Christian perspective you are told that those who have not made that commitment will not get into heaven which rather begs the question what you would be like in heaven because I have a lot of friends/family who haven't made that commitment so theoretically that means they wouldn't get there that being the case would I be truly happy there? and in my current physical body with the emotional responses that I have I would say not entirely. This is why I wonder whether as part of the transition you would not be changed beyond recognition, that your emotions would perhaps change into something we cannot at the moment comprehend or perhaps when you get there you would have no memories of what you had left behind.... who knows?
"War doesn't ennoble men,
It makes them into dogs,
It poisons the soul."
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It was Boromir who said men are full of weakness, but there is much honor to be found, too. I'm proud to be a simple mortal girl. I'd rather choose imperfection above unchanging virtue. Men make the world soar to new heights, to challenge norms and brave the odds. It is through the sweat of men that frontiers are explored and land carved out. Elves may have time on their side, but men know how to seize the day.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peoplesfrontof_m-e/
 @~~ Renee @~~
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"Elves may have time on their side, but men know how to bump the post of the week. "
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Beautiful.
And all I loved, I loved alone...
@~~Renee @~~
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The road may pass, but they shall not! Not while Faramir is Captain.
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Knowledge is Power. Power corrupts.
Study hard. Be evil.
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sinaes
(Fri May 2 19:44:08)
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I'm like a good haines t-shirt: tagless 
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Bump bump bump!
 Honk if you love peace and quiet
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CTS-1
(Sun May 11 07:26:15)
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Bump
Look- he's trying to think!
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...the angels had guitars even before they had wings...
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Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
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Bump again
 if you hate Tom Hardy
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Bump bump BUMP!
Fernie
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